Did WotC underestimate the Paizo effect on 4E?

[Wicht]

How about this to answer things.

You feel that the game should translate directly the monster from the story (nevermind that it, well, doesn't). If the medusa sees you, you turn to stone, end of that. The importance is in directly simulating the monster as close as you can to the story itself.

I feel that the game should localize the monster. What I'm more interested is in simulating the narrative focus of the story. The hero doesn't succeed because he makes his saving throw or because the dice are "against him," he succeeds because he trusts the gods, he has bravery, and because he's the protagonist.

For your style of gameplay, SoDs are, as in your own words, adequete. They don't quite add up to the whole "If she sees you, you are stone, period." But, they roughly get the job done. SSSoD for this style is bad, because it creates another layer between a direct translation of the monster and the game.

For my style of gameplay, SSSoDs work fantastically, The narrative of the story flows and tension heightens as the failed saves comes up - and I'm sorry, but if you think the first two saves are utterly unimportant and ignorable, you're speaking from ignorance. Being slowed for many classes is terrible, and being immobilized for just about every class is horrifying. For me, SoDs ruin this - too much importance is placed on a single dice roll, too much power is out of the players' hands, when the narrative should be about them bravely facing an evil and scary monster, not praying to be lucky.

To use a non-D&D example, if you're playing a Star Trek game and the klingons damage the ship and a bridge member is there with a few others, you roll the dice and damn, he dies. Important character, lost. In my case, the nameless red shirt always dies first, because that's how the narrative of that type of story works.

Which all boils down to mean: its a subjective judgment call and some people may play in a different style of game in which the sudden death mechanic mirrors the effect they want better than the lingering effect. Correct?

 

[Coldwyn]

You still seem to be working on the basis that Medusa had to look at people to turn them to stone. She didn't. Otherwise, Perseus wouldn't have needed his mirrored shield. She was asleep when he cut her head off, after all. And then kept her head to use as his 'I Win' button in a few other conflicts. Instant death is certainly part of the story, but saving throws aren't. Not SSSoD or SoD. Just D.

I think it´ll be worth a try to change her gaze attack to an aura and see what happens.

 

[billd91]

You still seem to be working on the basis that Medusa had to look at people to turn them to stone. She didn't. Otherwise, Perseus wouldn't have needed his mirrored shield. She was asleep when he cut her head off, after all. And then kept her head to use as his 'I Win' button in a few other conflicts. Instant death is certainly part of the story, but saving throws aren't. Not SSSoD or SoD. Just D.

I think you're working under a misconception here. The saving throw mechanic was designed to save the PC from situations just like that, a situation that would otherwise be certain death. It was a measure of the heroism of the character that they had a chance, even a small one, to avoid that doom. That's why it's a saving throw.

 

[Bluenose]

Uhm... Nagol pretty much summed up the point I have been trying to make about SoD since the beginning... yet...you've not come up with a way that 4e's mechanics in any way model the medusa of classical mythology or modern culture.

If Medusa affects you with her gaze you turn to stone. That seems both to reflect how the 4e mechanics work and the way it works in classical mythology. If you're going to have a saving throw at all, you're already deviating from the sources. Nagol somewhat implies this, pointing out you can circumvent the need to save.

I think you're working under a misconception here. The saving throw mechanic was designed to save the PC from situations just like that, a situation that would otherwise be certain death. It was a measure of the heroism of the character that they had a chance, even a small one, to avoid that doom. That's why it's a saving throw.

If your heroes are greater than the sources, why only allow one saving throw? Why is that the magic number?

 

[billd91]

If your heroes are greater than the sources, why only allow one saving throw? Why is that the magic number?

How much greater than the sources do you think your character needs to be?

 

[Coldwyn]

How much greater than the sources do you think your character needs to be?

I think you´re really missunderstanding him. If you stik with the source, there is no way to survive the encounter with the medusa without using the mirror shield.
If we´re already deviating from the source by using that one save, as the MM entry suggests, then the D&D heroes are already greater than the source by being immune just by virtue of being heroes. Where´s the need for the shield then?
If you take the 4E medusa, as suggested, you´re more or less close-blasting with petrifying gaze every round, all your enemies.

 

[Azgulor]

Serious question.

How did we get this many pages deep into SoD mechanics discussion in the RPG Industry Forum?

"A forum for communicating with publishers and for posting press releases and announcements. Now includes the old e-Publishing and RPG Legalities forums. If you want to discuss the business of RPGs rather than the game itself, this is your forum."

I'm used to see an old-fashioned tangent & the occasional thread-jack, and while I love a good "classic medusa fight" debate, but -- really? Is anyone even pretending the discussion is still relevant to the original topic anymore?

Note: I'm all for the discussion and find it interesting, just in a different thread/forum. I just keep coming back to this thread thinking it'll get back on topic... YMMV.

 

[Coldwyn]

Maybe because this thread used to be in general rpg discussions and was moved here?

 

[Azgulor]

The OP may have pre-dated the Industry forum, but the original topic and original pages sure fit this forum. A battle for the hearts-and-minds of Save-or-Die game mechanic fence-sitters doesn't. At least I'm not seeing it.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Serious question.

How did we get this many pages deep into SoD mechanics discussion in the RPG Industry Forum?

"A forum for communicating with publishers and for posting press releases and announcements. Now includes the old e-Publishing and RPG Legalities forums. If you want to discuss the business of RPGs rather than the game itself, this is your forum."

I'm used to see an old-fashioned tangent & the occasional thread-jack, and while I love a good "classic medusa fight" debate, but -- really? Is anyone even pretending the discussion is still relevant to the original topic anymore?

Note: I'm all for the discussion and find it interesting, just in a different thread/forum. I just keep coming back to this thread thinking it'll get back on topic... YMMV.

I think it is just time for the biannual save or die discussion

I though with the split I had seen the end of it but no.