A reason why 4E is not as popular as it could have been

I don’t see this as an Edition War, but more of a neighborly squabble, instead. We all agree to disagree. I picked up the 4e books the day they were released, read through them, and made an informed choice to remain with 3.5e. I made a similar choice the day that 2e was released, choosing instead to remain with 1e.

Others embraced the new edition. The reasons why really don’t concern me but I hope they understand I will never play 4e, just as they will never return to 3.5e. And of course there are others who play both editions fluidly. So here we are, walking that fine line between “whatever floats your boat” and “get off of my lawn”.

Personally, 4e did not present itself as a viable step forward from 3e because of the manner it was presented. I was in the middle of running a 3.5e game, when 4e was announced. It was strongly suggested that players and DMs alike finish their current campaigns to prepare to begin anew with 4e. That seemed strange, as my game at the time had gone from using the 1e ruleset to the 3e ruleset with minimal effort. Further information began to chip away at my preferred style of play, in favor of what the designers thought was “fun”.

And no, 4e does not smell like D&D, to me. It killed far too many sacred cows that had been preserved throughout prior editions; the World of Greyhawk, etheral plane, succubus/erinyes, undersea critters and hags, etc. Those changes might well have drawn others to 4e, but it turned me into a leap-grognard.

Still, I considered trying a 4e game. But, given the initial rules provided, the game I wanted to run, which required druids, greenhags, and the Awaken spell, was not supported. Sure, I could have converted them from a prior edition, but why bother when one could simply run such a game with the prior ruleset?

And yet, while I have have never had the desire to invest my interest in a setting other than GH, it turns out setting can play a role in attracting one to a different edition. Alluria Publishing released Cerulean Seas for the Pathfinder RPG, though it did not use Golarion as the campaign setting. I had never considered Pathfinder, as it was close enough to 3.5e not to warrant a second glance. Yet, as my 3.5e game is set underwater, the undersea aspects of Cerulean Seas piqued my interest.

So, I downloaded the book (PDF only, hardcopy due in April). I liked what I saw. It made references to Pathfinder’s Advanced Player’s Guide. I downloaded that PDF and liked what I saw. The next thing I know I had 5 Pathfinder PDFs and had picked up a few hardcopies at Amazon and Books-a-Million. Now I find myself wondering if a Pathfinder/Cerulean Seas campaign would find a wider audience than my 3.5e campaign.

We shall see. :)
 

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Pawsplay, I think what you say tends to reinforce my point - or, at least, it seems to me quite consistent with it.

The only way in which that sort of simulationism makes a game newbie-friendly is if the newbie has an excellent grasp of real world probabilities, and the GM gives a rich enough description of the ingame situation for the newbie to be able to apply his/her knowledge.

That is certainly NOT the only way. RPGs will tell you what is doable or not, primarily through what there are rules for. If you want to take this action, and the GM explains the penalties and modifiers, it will be clear this a sub-optimal action. That is the beauty of rules. It is also the downfall of GM improvisation, unless the GM and the players all agree on what is feasible.

I'm a big fan of using systems in loose and creative ways, but that can easily go too far. If you find yourself thinking, "Why do I need rules at all?" the answer is probably that you don't. But I like having rules.

I don't think this is likely to be a very common state of affairs.

I think the typical newbie to a fantasy RPG is more likely to declare actions based on a sense of fictional/cinematic appropriateness. (We're assuming here that the newbie in question hasn't already mastered the mechanics, and so isn't guided by considerations of mechanical optimality.) And a system that processes those declarations by rendering them as mechanically sub-optimal isn't one that I see as especially newbie-friendly.

I have no idea where you are getting your assumptions. Seeing newbies as wide-eyed "cinematic" roleplayers with a romantic view of combat is, I think, a narrow view of the newbie population, extremely narrow. Someone who reads LOTR isn't necessarily going to have the same view of the fantasy genre as someone who saw the film first. Someone who grew up playing WoW is not necessarily going to expect that any and all "cool" actions are going to be effective; a few tough raids will rub off any such misunderstandings. Someone who prefers Kingdom of Heaven to Conan the Barbarian is going to have a different view. Someone who prefers The Matrix to CTHD is probably likely to intuit that the actions in the Matrix are linked to specific powers that must be learned.

Decades of history suggest you are wrong. Vampire was extremely newbie friendly. It had a flexible game system, but what really drew people in were the sourcebooks. The New Word of Darkness is probably less newbie-friendly, precisely because it is more abstract, less codified; more optional, less core.

It is a common myth that newbies love improvisation and rules-lite gaming. A certain minority do; they temperamentally prefer it, and figure that out early on. But most do not. Rules-lite gaming is the equivalent to writing blank verse; anyone can do it, but doing it well requires considerable skill. To be able to act intuitively, to respond realistically or cinematically, to be able to produce narration on the fly... those are the skills of an advanced player. They require practice, and they require building blocks. And most often, those building blocks are things like pre-built encounters to study, playing and experiencing games of various types to learn about tone and philosophy, mastering rules so you can understand how different actions relate to each other.

To most newbies, introducing them to gaming through rules-lite gaming is like inviting someone out to a fantastic new restaurant, then taking them to one of the restaurants where you have to pick your own ingredients. If they know what the ingredients do and how to combine them, great! If not... shoot, they'd probably rather just grab some cheese fries.
 

What interests me more is why Pathfinder is selling so well. Paizo's core products are their AP's, correct? Are there really that many Pathfinder DM's out their running that many Pathfinder campaigns? What's driving their sales?

It seems what Paizo's done --and more power to them for doing so-- is to successfully steal a big portion of the "D&D completist" segment away from WotC. People who are now buying adventures they won't get to run instead of books of class crunch for PC's they won't get to play.

Well I do remember reading that a lot of people who buy stuff like APs and adventures are those who just read them them. They can't get a group together or something so they do the next best thing.
 

Good point. With the Advanced Player's Guide they've certainly moved beyond it that base, however.
Certainly, but that's like BMW's work with the Cooper Minis- those cars had a huge following before BMW bought the company and returned them to production with modern features.

Pathfinder would die if it didn't make SOME changes.
I'm saying that the popular dolls are making the accessories popular, and that selling the accessories is the business model.

Actually, what I said:
The availability of the accessories isn't making the dolls popular, they were popular beforehand.

...echoes your point, and is a refutation of the OP's point. The accessories (campaign settings, adventure paths, etc.), are only selling because of the popularity of the underlying ruleset; they are not a significant reason why the underlying ruleset fails or succeeds.
 
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It seems what Paizo's done --and more power to them for doing so-- is to successfully steal a big portion of the "D&D completist" segment away from WotC.
How do you think they did this?




People who are now buying adventures they won't get to run instead of books of class crunch for PC's they won't get to play.
Don't agree here. Adventure and story and flavor are absolutely the foundation of Paizo's reputation and their success built up from there. And they do continue to prove that strength.

But their crunch sells very well also.



(I also chuckle at the ease of presumption of buying stuff and not ever using it, but I'll just tack that to the list of our differences and save it for a more fitting thread)
 

It is a common myth that newbies love improvisation and rules-lite gaming.
My experience strongly agrees with this. (at least the "rule-light" part)

However, I would temper that with "different strokes..."

I would not be at all surprised to find that a survey of 3X fans who don't care for 4E would reflect your (and my) view and a survey of 4E fans who don't care for 3X would support the "myth".
 

How do you think they did this?
By producing products the higher-spending segment of the market wanted to buy.

Personally I don't have any use for Paizo products. My group uses homebrew settings exclusively, and our DM's custom-create adventures, mostly in response to PC actions, pretty much the opposite of a published adventure path series. However, I can see the allure of their products, because adventures and their attendant setting details are much more like fiction than the (mostly) mechanics-focused 4e books. Paizo's offerings have an additional utility as inspiration and pure reading material that WotC's don't.

Adventure and story and flavor are absolutely the foundation of Paizo's reputation and their success built up from there. And they do continue to prove that strength.

But their crunch sells very well also.
I agree with this. But, as you say, they made their reputation selling adventures, and their crunch supports their adventure line, not vice-versa. And this proved to be a smart choice.

(I also chuckle at the ease of presumption of buying stuff and not ever using it, but I'll just tack that to the list of our differences and save it for a more fitting thread)
It may be fodder for another thread, but let's touch on it here. I don't think it's very presumptuous at all. There is a segment of gaming market that's completist. You'll find plenty of people around here who happily admit to being a part of it.

But more importantly, how many adventure paths does your average, aging, time-pressed D&D group have time to actually play out? Given the volume of material Paizo publishes, it's hardly a stretch to suggest that a portion, if not a significant portion, is, at best, being read and not played. And the same is true for WotC's books full of additional PC mechanics.
 

Wow, this is my favorite new thread in quite some time. To address the OP, I am not sure sure if it is important for WotC to have a single, well-supported setting, but I do think think they are hurt by the relative dearth of setting material and adventures available for 4e. I know not every DM uses either of these, but I know they are a big part of the draw for me to use a given system.

Maybe it isn't specifically the lack of setting materials, or adventures, but the lack of variety of stuff available. IMHO, WotC has never been great at putting out adventures. There a few 3.x adventures a like, and that second one for 4e seems pretty good, but they have never put out many, and only a subset of those are very good. Under the OGL, this didn't particularly matter, and there were plenty of 3rd-party adventures, as well as splatbooks, setting books, and whatever else you wanted.

Now many (most, I would say) of these 3rd-party products were crap, but there were still quite a few that were good. If you are someone who says "I like a system that has X available for it," chances are 3.x had that. Fast forward to today. If X in anything other than company-approved splat books, or delves, you are out of luck, and are probably playing something else. (Although I admit, if X is computer support, 4e has that much better than 3x in its heyday, although less so than 6 months ago).

Now, I can certainly understand why WotC would have wanted a more restrictive license this time. They were probably happy to have Goodman and Necromancer and Paizo making adventures for their system. But I am sure they saw variant d20 games like Spycraft and Green Ronin's Mythic Vistas line as folks taking a free ride at best, lost sales at worst. But they made it so restrictive (and released it so late), it gave even the module-producers second thoughts. And something about the system (tight integration? constant release of new feats and powers?) chased away the third-party splatbooks as well.

The end result is a system where WotC is making all the potentially big-selling items, but for which no one is making all the other stuff. I don't know if they meant to chase off the third-party guys quite so thoroughly, or if it was just a case of "think you used enough dynamite there, Butch", but in an effort stop losing sales to third-party products, they put themselves in a situation where they are losing sales by having a system that is "not as popular as it could have been" because it lacks those very 3rd-party products.

Given that they pulled PDF sales, and pulled the character-builder online, they seem almost obsessive in trying to make sure no one freeloads off their IP, whether it be due to piracy, infrequent DDI subscribing, or lazy 3rd-party products. We have no way of knowing whether this was a conscious decision by Hasbro to have tighter control over a possibly smaller segment of the market, or just someone higher up the corporate ladder tying WotC's hands in a very short-sighted way.

I'm not entirely sure where I am going with all this, I guess just that given WotC's business plan of a tightly-integrated game system with limited 3rd-party support, 4e is about exactly "as popular as it could have been." Whether Hasbro expected those results or not, only they can say.
 

Well I do remember reading that a lot of people who buy stuff like APs and adventures are those who just read them them. They can't get a group together or something so they do the next best thing.

All of their subscribers follow this "adventures are read for entertainment" model to one extent or another; moreover, it's not hard to see why.

Consider for a moment the sheer volume of adventure material that Paizo puts out in a given year:

12 x 96 pp. Adventure Paths
6 x 32 pp. stand alone Modules
~25 x 16 pp. Pathfinder Society Scenarios

That's ~ 1,744 pages of adventure material per year that Paizo publishes. The setting material which Paizo publishes is in addition to thie material, and approaches an additional 300-400 pages per year, exclusive of hardcover content.

2,150 pages + per year. That's a LOT.

You could be an extremely busy GM with gamers camped outside your front door begging to play at your table every night of the week. And you would still have a very hard time using all of that adventure material in one year.

More frequently, customers will be playing one AP for 12-24 months, while at the same time they continue to purchase the other APs that are published during their campaign. That adventure material is read as it is acquied monthly (to varying degrees). That GM may return to it when the current campaign is over -- and it may not be. Some other AP may get the nod for the "next campaign."

If a campaign last 24months, there will have been at least three (and maybe four) other APs the GM has collected during the course of the length of time it takes to play that campaign. It is extremely difficult to "keep up" with each AP -- and few even try to do so.

Now, it is true that for a minority of customers, the ability to collect and read APs is as close to gaming as they get in their current circumstances (for a variety of personal reasons). But the fact that many adventures are only read (and rarely actually run) has been true for decades. It isn't something new to Paizo or Pathfinder.

What is new, is that Paizo recognizes that reality and openly acknowledges that the AP format inherently develops greater "reader interest" from issue to issue than non- AP issues of Dungeon Magazine did. That's one of the reasons the AP format was so successful.

The point to take away is that there is no shame in recognizing that there is great value-in-use in terms of how well an adventure reads. To be a great adventure you have to: (1) Look good, (2) Read Well and (3) Play Well.

All three factors are important. It's not just about the gameplay.

When you look at the sheer mass of hardcvoer material that was put out for 3.xx, I expect that the adventures of that era that were read at least once was at a frequently higher than the cornucopia of rules wihch were read at least once during the same time line. The broad mass of those rule books were flipped through, glanced over, and put on a shelf.

The ability of a gamer to purchase FAR more material than they can read (let alone use at the table) in a given period of time is one of the main things which keeps this hobby going.





 
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12 x 96 pp. Adventure Paths
6 x 32 pp. stand alone Modules
~25 x 16 pp. Pathfinder Society Scenarios

That's ~ 1,744 pages of adventure material per year that Paizo publishes.

Thanks for the facts and figures, SW! And Bryon scoffed at presumption that some Paizo customers might not be playing the adventures they purchased...
 

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