D&D 3E/3.5 D&D 3.5 ruleset, splitting Dexterity

[nonsi256]

ps. To nonsi256: No offense, I have read much of your Final Codex of rules and I find them lacking in many of the same ways as the base system.

No offense, but making this kind of generalized statement on such comprehensive collection of issues cannot amount to anything more than blatant slandering. Present any issue(s) you wish to discuss and there's a pretty decent chance I'll manage to prove you wrong.

Where the base system excels is not having to re-learn a whole bunch of new stuff, having to convert anything already made for the 3e d20 system...

Your statement makes it sound like newcomers to 3e don't have to cope with a massive amount of rules as it is. Using 3e as a baseline to figure out my ideas is substantially easier than coping with 3e with no background (and I as far as my experience goes, the effort will be most rewarding).

and not having to adhere to your interpretation of what the game should look like.

Not a single idea in my HR is there based purely on my interpretation of what the game should look like. After 2 decades of gaming experience, there's at least one more reason (with assessments of the pros and cons) for each of my suggestions (if you're curious, you're welcome to ask).

While I'm sure your rules work for you and I'm happy about that, I really don't think they will work for everyone,

Ever encountered the insight 'YMMV'? Why don't you let everyone decide for themselves ?

nor do I suggest that you offer them as a remedy to questions like the one the OP asked.

Now that's tastelessly rude. Assuming I'm not all that radically different from the rest of mankind (I'd assume you give me that much), if it worked for me, it'd probably work for others (to each his own).

 

[nonsi256]

Why not? The style of his rules mightn't suit your tastes, but they may appeal to others or at least give them some food for thought. His rule splits Dex out into Agility as well, which is precisely what the OP was talking about.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
Thanks.

 

[billd91]

I don't know if this has been mentioned (I don't have permission to use the search function it seems)

I was thinking that Dexterity controls dodge and accuracy, does that not strike anyone as two separate abilities, one that commands your ability to aim and hand-to-eye coordination and a separate one for evasion and manoeuvrability.

what do you think?

I have a copy of DC Adventures, the first entry into 3rd edition Mutants and Masterminds, and it has gone in that direction. The old Dexterity stat is broken into two components. In a point-buy character generation system based off d20, it makes sense to do it otherwise it's kind of a king stat helping defense, ranged offense, initiative, and extremely useful skills.

As a comparison, Champions also bases a lot of combat on Dexterity, but each point of Dex is 3x the cost of Strength. That's the other main alternative to splitting the stat up - making it more expensive.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Wow so many responses,

1) "However... All of the D&D ability scores encompass at least two capabilities. Just read the descriptions of each ability"

I read the descriptions on that link, and each ability (imo) encompasses one ability (str=physical power, con=endurance, Int=reasoning, wis=perception and Cha is difficult to pin down to one word but i think it is how persuasive you are)

2) While I agree that Nonsi256's ideas might not work for everyone that is actually a very good system with a few tweaks that would work for me so Thanks very Much

3) Tovec, I'm not sure what you mean by Honour being part of Con (if you meant Cha then i can understand that, or if you were making a point then equally fine)

4) Regarding Str, it affects how hard you hit, as in Melee Damage but (imo) it doesn't affect accuracy because that's, in the original rules, Dexterity

5) I agree that Dexterity does seem a King Stat because it affects ranged and melee damage (with weapon finesse feat) and armour as well as other things, yet another reason to split it as Billd91 said

Thank you for your opinions, especially Nonsi256, I think I will run a few adventures with the stat split and see how it balances

 

[TanisFrey]

It's an interesting system. I just wanted to say that I have always interpreted the Str bonus To Hit as being able to bypass armor more easily, not adjusting to strike weaker places.

Ironic, this is the reason they use in HackMaster Basic for you to do more damage through armor. HMB does not use an armor class system. Attack rolls are opposed by Defense rolls. Someone whom chooses to don armor actualy makes it more easy for people to hit them. However armor prevents damage from being done.

In HackMaster Basic, Armor has all the following effects damage reduction, defense adjustment, initiative modifier, weapon speed modifier and movement penalties. example: Chainmail provides DR 5, -5 to defense, +2 to initiative, +2 to weapon speed, and prevents you from sprinting.

The system uses a second counter to determine when you can act. So the +2 initiative slows you from responding to enemies appearing. When you weapon speed increases you attack less frequently.

I like the system for its 1st ed D&D feel while balancing things back to melee combatants and yet be more it is more realistic in how armor and quickness affects a battle.

 

[Jack Simth]

With most weapons, being stronger means being able to swing the weapon faster, meaning it is harder for people to dodge. Imagine a 6 strength person and a 18 strength person both swinging the same great axe. Obviously this doesn't apply to all weapons, but it certainly isn't outside the realm of plausibility.

Curiously, accuracy in melee seems to be at least partly strength-based in real life.

Nobody's fully certain *why*, but strength-training and/or steroids do seem to make a batter more likely to be able to hit a baseball (bat's a melee weapon). It's why they need to do so much drug testing, there.

 

[TanisFrey]

Curiously, accuracy in melee seems to be at least partly strength-based in real life.

Nobody's fully certain *why*, but strength-training and/or steroids do seem to make a batter more likely to be able to hit a baseball (bat's a melee weapon). It's why they need to do so much drug testing, there.

I would like to believe the the stronger baseball players are able to more power through the bat to turn a marginal hit into a good hit. IE. some hit that would have gone down the baseline and gone foul, now stays in play for the juicing player, because the greater momentum of the ball allows it to ignore wind factors and bounces than before.

I am sure someone out there really studies baseball and steroid use could confirm why a juicing player has a greater batting average.

 

[Mon]

Wow so many responses,

1) "However... All of the D&D ability scores encompass at least two capabilities. Just read the descriptions of each ability"

I read the descriptions on that link, and each ability (imo) encompasses one ability (str=muscle, con=endurance, Int=reasoning, wis=perception and Cha is difficult to pin down to one word but i think it is how persuasive you are)

Except... that's not all that the descriptions at the link say (the SRD). Here is what they actually say:

Strength measures your character’s muscle and physical power.

Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina.

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition.

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

So that's two capabilities each for Str, Con, and Int; four for Wis; five for Cha.

 

[Tovec]

To Omegaxicor, You'll notice I got your name right, What I was trying to state about abilities being several different things in one was said nicely by Mon just the post before mine. I was giving wilder reasons of why the system was built a certain way. If you want to use Agility and Dexterity, or Speed, or any other variant or system you have thought up or found, by all means feel free. It will not hurt me in anyway, I only wanted to point out that I have seen many attempts to "fix" the system by splitting DEX in two and I have seen that it is a slippery slope trying to decide what should and what should not be an ability. I have also found on other threads those that try create much more work than expected in trying to understand or fix the combination which makes up DEX.

To Mon, yes thank you for clarifying my point in the post previous to this. As far as your reply to my previous post - I was merely trying to state that ALL of his rules do not apply to the specific question which was asked. Similarly it doesn't make sense to suggest someone adopt ALL houserules found in the Unearthed Arcana when a specific excerpt is what they are looking for.

To nonsi256, the reason I said what I sad was not to provoke you or antagonize you. I just think that suggesting a rather large set of rules for a minor question seems (in my mind) to be pushing your rules to someone who may not want them. (I have looked at them, briefly, and I didn't.) If Omegaxicor found much of your system (or all of it) useful that's great but it wasn't the point.
Also as far as your concerns to what I said I'd be happy to talk to you in private messages, this isn't the place to continue with this.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Tovec, I'm terribly sorry, I should've looked instead of assuming I could remember the spelling

and yes, I misunderstood your post, in D&D 3.5 Honour isn't a separate Score which is why I didn't understand what you meant

Mon:
Strength measures your character’s muscle and physical power.

Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina.

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition.

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

That's based on definition, I see what you mean but to me physical power includes muscle just like saying Goblinoids and Hobgobllins are two different things, whereas accuracy and agility are totally different things.

Though I just noticed that Perception (part of Wisdom) and Hand-to-Eye coordination aren't that different, maybe just ruling that all characters use Wisdom rather than Dexterity for accuracy based checks (like everyone having the Zen Archery feat)