Computers, Projectors, and Battle Maps.

[Steel_Wind]

Why use a table? The advantage of a projector (and Mini-counter on separate Photoshop/GIMP layers) is that the battle map can be projected on a wall. This leaves the table free for books, sheets and dice-not to mention the fact that spills and crumbs are safely away from the action.

Because:

• I can't put my minis on a wall projected image;
• I can't intereact with such a battlmap normally as I usually do with my game by just reaching out my hand and moving my miniature. By having to tell somebody else what to do, or what to move and where to move it, the technology DIVIDES the players from the game instead of uniting them around a common tabletop;
• instead of providing a point of focus and convergence around which people gather to play a game and look at one another in the ordinary way, the players slip in to a non-engaged "entertain me" mode which is markedly different from the atmosphere of a normal Tabletop RPG. This is not an improvement -- this is a marked disadvantage.

I have posted on this issue extensively since I started the initial Coolest. Gaming Setup. Evar. thread here on ENWorld about six years ago. For all of these reasons, projecting an image on the wall is a singularly BAD idea and a poor use of this technology. I recommend strongly against it.

 

[falcarrion]

it is possible to do miniatures on a wall. If it is magnetic. Such as a magnetic white board. I have a white board that I shine the projected image onto. Though I have it flat on a table I could put it on the wall and use it that way.
I already have magnets on the base of my miniatures that are strong enough to stick and stay on the refrigerator.

 

[Piratecat]

Use the NWN1 toolset - that's the ticket to speed.

Hmm. Where do you get NWN nowadays? How steep is the learning curve?

 

[cyderak]

Hmm. Where do you get NWN nowadays? How steep is the learning curve?

Heres where you can get Neverwinter Nights for cheap and windows 7 compatible:

Neverwinter Nights: Diamond Edition - GOG.com


But, How do you add a grid over the NWN created maps???

 

[cyderak]

Why use a table? The advantage of a projector (and Mini-counter on separate Photoshop/GIMP layers) is that the battle map can be projected on a wall. This leaves the table free for books, sheets and dice-not to mention the fact that spills and crumbs are safely away from the action.

Also, if the minis are traditional unpainted metal (most non-star wars sci-fi ones still are, aren't they?) then the time required to sand, paint, assemble and otherwise prep a handful of minis can yield a map, a huge number of mini-tiles and still end up costing less.

I'm not suggesting that miniature collecting and wargame play should be replaced; after all, they are a hobby within themselves. For me personally, I want a convenient way to keep the action going in an RPG, and I think that projectors and jpg files may be the way to go.

We only use Painted minis for our character PC's. Besides, I get all mine professionally painted by a phenominal artist in my area.

We use D&D Pre-Painted Minis for all the monsters.

I like using minis. Keeps with the traditional way of gaming.

If I want to sit around and watch my game from afar and periodically make decisions i'll just play this [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Scourge-Worlds-Dungeons-Dragons-Adventure/dp/B00009KU8L/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297294232&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: Scourge of Worlds - A Dungeons & Dragons Adventure: Dan Hay, Lester Rosenthal, Anna Deas, Caroline Lesley, Jack Brown, Sam Cunningham, Chad Nixon, Paul Stodolny, Peter Lepeniotis, Tom Perry, Jos'h R.L. Fuller, Mark Davies, Dan Krech, [/ame]

 

[Steel_Wind]

Heres where you can get Neverwinter Nights for cheap and windows compatible:

Neverwinter Nights: Diamond Edition - GOG.com


But, How do you add a grid over the NWN created maps???

I project onto a pre-grided surface. This is preferable, as it allows you to control the map scale both in hardware and via the zoom feature of the lens, indpendent of an otherwise consistent grid. For a variety of reasons, I have found this to be a better approach.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Hmm. Where do you get NWN nowadays? How steep is the learning curve?

I saw NWN Diamond Ed. for $10 on Steam 2 weeks ago. You want to be sure to patch it to the last update -- as that it where all the cool art that my team spent three years making was added in. There is, literally, more art resources in the final patch than was added to the game in the first two expansions -- combined. You can also use our creature art to do some neat things -- like add horses to your scene when creating a campsite with horselines. (complete with barding if you care to add it) Stuff like that is HANDY when building a scene.

In terms of building and drawing? Literally, couldn't be easier.

NWN 1's learning curve was shalllow as all hell when it came to basic map building. When it came to lighting? A little trickier -- but still extremely easy.

When it came to scripting? That's a different matter entirely. Very steep curve then. But you aren't going to be scripting anything (and in your specific case, I don't think NWScript would be too hard in any event)

But scripting doesn't matter for this purpose, as you will never be running your map in the game client -- all map display will take place within the toolset itself. You will never be required to do one line of nwscript, ever, with the toolset when using the toolset for this purpose.

The only thing you would have to do any NWN modding for (if you wanted to) would be to add new placeables to your placeables 2da file from the Neverwintervault. That's it - that's all. And there are tutorials available to do this if you needed to do it. It's editing a column delimited text file. That part is easy if you decide to do it.

Otherwise? As easy and intuitive drawing as has ever been devised by man. That's the beauty of tile based map design in NWN 1. It's FAST and EASY. The entire toolset was designed, literally, on the paradigm that Trent Oster's grandmother (he was the producer of NWN1) was supposed to be able to fire it up and visually accomplish something with it in the first ten minutes.

That was their design mantra and they executed on it rather brilliantly.

 

[Oryan77]

You can also use our creature art to do some neat things -- like add horses to your scene when creating a campsite with horselines.

Can you do fog-of-war within the NWN map tool? I still have my copy of NWN but I never messed with the map tool. I may just have to reinstall this.

Also, maybe this has been discussed in your original thread, but I don't have time to search through that huge thread, so I'll just ask here. Have projectors become any better as far as the room needing to be dark in order to view the projected image?

That has been the only reason I never did attempt this sort of thing. Everything I read about it seemed to show that the room needed to be dark, or fairly dark. And I can't read books and character sheets in a room that is not lit well. Plus I wouldn't want to be in a dark room with my players. There is no telling what they'd do to me if nobody could see.

 

[cyderak]

I saw NWN Diamond Ed. for $10 on Steam 2 weeks ago. You want to be sure to patch it to the last update -- as that it where all the cool art that my team spent three years making was added in. There is, literally, more art resources in the final patch than was added to the game in the first two expansions -- combined. You can also use our creature art to do some neat things -- like add horses to your scene when creating a campsite with horselines. (complete with barding if you care to add it) Stuff like that is HANDY when building a scene.

In terms of building and drawing? Literally, couldn't be easier.

NWN 1's learning curve was shalllow as all hell when it came to basic map building. When it came to lighting? A little trickier -- but still extremely easy.

When it came to scripting? That's a different matter entirely. Very steep curve then. But you aren't going to be scripting anything (and in your specific case, I don't think NWScript would be too hard in any event)

But scripting doesn't matter for this purpose, as you will never be running your map in the game client -- all map display will take place within the toolset itself. You will never be required to do one line of nwscript, ever, with the toolset when using the toolset for this purpose.

The only thing you would have to do any NWN modding for (if you wanted to) would be to add new placeables to your placeables 2da file from the Neverwintervault. That's it - that's all. And there are tutorials available to do this if you needed to do it. It's editing a column delimited text file. That part is easy if you decide to do it.

Otherwise? As easy and intuitive drawing as has ever been devised by man. That's the beauty of tile based map design in NWN 1. It's FAST and EASY. The entire toolset was designed, literally, on the paradigm that Trent Oster's grandmother (he was the producer of NWN1) was supposed to be able to fire it up and visually accomplish something with it in the first ten minutes.

That was their design mantra and they executed on it rather brilliantly.

You have any pre-generated maps you'd like to share?

 

[Steel_Wind]

Can you do fog-of-war within the NWN map tool? I still have my copy of NWN but I never messed with the map tool. I may just have to reinstall this.

In the toolset? Not easily - but you can kludge one. I created a placeable with a black pane preset to come in at a height above the map. I think I made it an attachment to a message in the original thread. It should still be there.

You essentially build your map - then populate those placeables and place them over the top of what you want hidden. You then remove them in the toolset to uncover the map beneath it as you go along.

It's not really intended for fog of war. It's ideal for villages, inside of small buildings, random encounters in the wild, caves, outdoor scenes and, especially, campsites. You can use it to explore a dungeon, but it's kludgey for that purpose. Not recommended for that.

Also, maybe this has been discussed in your original thread, but I don't have time to search through that huge thread, so I'll just ask here. Have projectors become any better as far as the room needing to be dark in order to view the projected image?

This was always a function of brightness. As long as you have an 1800 ANSI or better projector (preferably 2200 ANSI+) you'll be fine. Once you spike over 3500 ANSI, it's goudge your eyes out bright.

But to address this issue head on? I think projection technology is now passe for battlemat applications. A far better alternative -- and one which completely solves the brightness issue -- is a flat panel display. Grab a TV and lie it down on the table top.

When the projection thread started nearly six years ago, projectors at that time were ~ $500-$600 for a used projector. A lot of people on EN World bought projectors for $1000 to $2000+ dollars. Most were spending about $700-900 on their new projectors. All of those models used special lamps with optics in them that had a finite number of hours and were $300+ to replace. That has not changed. They still have a finite lifetime of use, degrade over the lifetime of that use (they get noticeably dimmer), and are hella-expensive to replace.

You can purchase a 5000 series Samsung 46" OLED Flat panel display, which is only 1.12 inches thick, for $899 right now. That thing has a flat back and lies down almost perfectly on a tabletop. It's THIN. REALLY THIN. It is a FRIKKIN AMAZING flat panel. The colors on it are absolutely gorgeous too. Moreover, the weight on this unit is so low that you can move it around easily without the need for another set of hands to help you. This technology is now here and as affordable as projection tech was when we first started adopting it here on ENWorld.

The Samsung 5000 is only a 60Hz model. The market is now moving to 120Hz or 240Hz for top end Blu-Ray use. But for most viewers? Really - the Samsung 5000 is still an amazingly high quality picture. And for battlemat use? The increase in Hz -- which is only relevant for a fast moving scene in a 1080p movie, is utterly irrelevant for our purposes. Our scenes aren't fast moving car chases So the trend in the high-end market is now serving a tech problem we don't have -- and which the more expensive sets don't add anything too. That means it's a good time to buy last year's set at a bargain price

In terms of size, a 46" flat panel is larger than most projected maps. It's also at the size where in terms of resolution, you really can't make a projected image any bigger than 46" on the diagonal without running into significant pixelation issues and image degradation. Most projectors were recommend on whether or not they could manage a 42" to 44" image at the throw distance from the ceiling to tabletop. If they could do that? They were about as good as they needed to be. Even 38" was considered passable.

Well, a 46" flat panel already beats that yardstick in every possible way.

In terms of contrast, brightness and detail? There probably isn't a projector on Planet Earth (well, outside of a Planetarium) that could ever compete with the Samsung.

And that's for a 1" thick bleeding edge OLED flat panel.

For a more middle of the road 42" or 46" LCD flat panel? That will run you only about $500-600.

Still, I think the Samsung OLED 46" is the way to go. But there are a large number of flat panels which are less sophisticated (read, thicker) than the Samsung which produce a comparable image.

Anyway, a flat panel is never going to suffer from any brightness issues. With a flat panel, the real question is ensuring it is turned down in brightness so it's not too bright to look at up close. The concerns that the image is washed out or not visible during play utterly vanishes.

We had speculated in the original thread when flat panels would become cheap enough -- and thin enough -- that projection technology would no longer make sense. In my view, we're at that point now.

Now, if you already have one -- or have a source for a fairly cheap used one? Ok. Then it's a matter of dollars and getting by with what you can.

But there is absolutely no reason to be buying a new projector for battlemap projection. I'd get a Samsung 5000 series LED flat panel.

That recommendation will change later this year and next, as new models come out. The main issue is image size, cost and overall thickness of the flat panel. 60 pound 1080P TVs that are 5" thick with an unevenly contoured back are hard to lie flat without a custom fit table specifically designed for the purpose.

A 46" 1.12 inch Samsung 5000? You can lie that down on your kitchen table and pick it up and move it after the game without any special modifications to the table.

Check it out at your local Best Buy. I did -- and I must admit, that within 1 second of seeing the thin and EVEN contour profile of that model, my mind started whirring like a sonofabitch. "She will be mine. She will be."

We're there folks. [Edit: Well... at least Oryan77 is there! ]