Computers, Projectors, and Battle Maps.

[Blue Max Studios]

Because:

• I can't put my minis on a wall projected image;
• I can't intereact with such a battlmap normally as I usually do with my game by just reaching out my hand and moving my miniature. By having to tell somebody else what to do, or what to move and where to move it, the technology DIVIDES the players from the game instead of uniting them around a common tabletop;
• instead of providing a point of focus and convergence around which people gather to play a game and look at one another in the ordinary way, the players slip in to a non-engaged "entertain me" mode which is markedly different from the atmosphere of a normal Tabletop RPG. This is not an improvement -- this is a marked disadvantage.

Mmmmm... I do sort of see your point. I admit for many traditional games that using such non-traditional techniques would indeed break that special magic that makes gaming an interactive experience as opposed to a low-tech version of a video game.

That being said, I still contend that there are situations that would make the advantages of computer controlled, wall projected battle maps and minis preferable to the traditional alternative:

• Big ships: Let's look at the Corellian Corvette, as Star Wars' smallest capital ship. At 150 meters, the battle map size (in SWSE's 1 inch=1.5 meter scale) would be nearly thirteen feet long. That is certainly a point where the side scroll function of a computer trumps a full sized poster map.
• Angle and Glare: Maybe it's just me, but at normal table top level, the glossy maps that one normally uses are at such a shallow angle to my eyes that about half the map is obscured by glare. Not to mention that I have to physically stand and move a mini, possibly walking around the table to do so. This may sound lazy, but my point is actually that it increases the risk of knocking over minis and scrambling terrain features in the process. The risk of such on a projection is zero.
• What Table?: I don't game at one. My friends and I would much rather sit on the couches in the living room. The coffee table is too small to be in reach of both couches at the same time, and it's low enough that my toddler boys can conduct truly epic raids against minis if not watched constantly. The argument can be made that my kids should not be present at a game, but if we couldn't have our kids present, there would be no game. Besides, out fellow players like our kids, like the fact that they can bring their kids and we don't mind and if we use a wall projection, again, all of the above arguments are invalid.

I not trying to suggest that everyone do it that way, mind you. I'm simply saying that an applied use of technology opens up options that would otherwise be impractical or impossible. That's what technology is for, right?

 

[mattcolville]

Yes. Use the original Neverwinter Nights 1 toolset to create and diplay your maps.

With placeable buildings, stripped rooms and rescaled furniture, you can build virtually any scene or battlemap faster than you can draw it -- at a level of detail which is half-dozen orders of magnitude greater in vibrancy and detail, too.

Ignore the suggestion about drawing on the fly with Maptool or other programs. They are FAR too slow.

Use the NWN1 toolset - that's the ticket to speed.

How does it compare to Dundjinni or the Tiamat Tile Mapper?

 

[Steel_Wind]

How does it compare to Dundjinni or the Tiamat Tile Mapper?

I have not tried Tiamat - though I did try e-Adventure tile mapper. e-Adventure is slapping down 2d images. Even then -- it's not as flexible and nowhere NEAR as pretty.

NWN's placeable list is vast. When you choose to paint down buildings as placeables, the "grid" look to NWN villages vanishes as well. Now, as a GAME, NWN pathfinding will break into a billion pieces if there are placeable buildings across walkmesh node points.

But that isn't what we are using it for when we just want to use it as a paint program to display a graphic image on a screen. We aren't making a module that needs to run as a compurer game with pathfinding AI that works. All we are using it for it to make a pretty 3d map. So it's all kinds of awesome for that. Hell, it will even give you animated seas/Ocens or animated lava fires on screen, too.

You can paint an entire village or town in less than a minute. Poof. Done.

Compared to Dundjinni? It's like comparing the Excelsior (NWN) vs. a Space Shuttle (Dundjinni).

Java is a slow-ass language for graphics. Dundjinni (which I bought the Platnium version of at a primo price back-in-the-day) is slow on any machine. The only point in favor of Dundjinni is that it will print maps. NWN does not have that capability.

But seeing as we are using a projector/display technology so that printing a map isn't an issue -- well that removes that advantage at a stroke, doesn't it?

They really can't compare. I can do more in NWN in 5 minutes than most people can do in 5 hours with Dundjinni.
And you can too.

Yes. Really. There's no comparison.

Now, appreciate as well that NWN is a 3d engine - not 2d. All the more reason.

Frankly, for making the kinds of maps that Dundjinni makes for electronic display (not for printing), I think that Maptool is a better, faster and more capable software package at a far better price (FREE).

But, even still, I wouldn't want to use Maptool in real time to make a great map in 1 or 2 minutes flat.

OTOH, I can get awesome results with NWN in those sorts of time constraints, no problem.

 

[Deepfire]

doublepost

 

[Deepfire]

Why use a table? The advantage of a projector (and Mini-counter on separate Photoshop/GIMP layers) is that the battle map can be projected on a wall. This leaves the table free for books, sheets and dice-not to mention the fact that spills and crumbs are safely away from the action.

Also, if the minis are traditional unpainted metal (most non-star wars sci-fi ones still are, aren't they?) then the time required to sand, paint, assemble and otherwise prep a handful of minis can yield a map, a huge number of mini-tiles and still end up costing less.

I'm not suggesting that miniature collecting and wargame play should be replaced; after all, they are a hobby within themselves. For me personally, I want a convenient way to keep the action going in an RPG, and I think that projectors and jpg files may be the way to go.

Displayed on a wall, I would have to move all counters ("no, more to the right"), PCs and whatever - on a table, the players can move their chars, I can add 3d elements for clarification, the concentration of the players is on the table/game/gm/center, not on a far away display.

On a table you can combine miniatures and digital icons - or use just one of them. It's "easy playing" - for more easier than with printed maps or with chessex washable maps, for instance.

These days, one of my groups visited a HUGE dungeon - and I could just scroll ... no problem with a too small table (ok, my table is huge), with cups or beer bottles (this is europe, we drink while playing) standing in the way or with chips fatting my precious paper maps.

Miniatures are just used because I have them already. Else I would only use digital icons.

Maybe I add a pic if I learn how i can do this here

happy gaming from germany

 

[jcayer]

As a group that has recently moved to the wall, I have to disagree with all the negativity. We use the built in tokens from maptools, or the players went and found an image they liked and we made it a token. Heck, they could draw one if any of them had the skill to do so. On top of that, someone/something gets bloodied, I can change their token to reflect that with 2 clicks. I have, or can easily create, ALL the monster tokens I want. I got tired of having the wrong mini, or using dice to represent monsters.

Moving things? Piece of cake, they have a wireless mouse that gets passed around the table and they can move their tokens wherever they wish.

They never look down, except at their sheets. I sit with my back to the wall and face them. Since they are always looking at me or the map, they are more involved.

We have a couple laser pointers scattered around the table and a grid, with coordinates, on the map. Easy to point things out.

Finally, the map is dynamic. Last night, the players had stolen an astral ship and were pursued by a flight of red dragons. Two of the dragons lit the ship on fire with their breath weapon. I drew the fire right on the map. One of the players decided to try to use an ice power against the fire, that also made it onto the map. Another ship pulled up along side and I was able to draw it right there in less than a minute(yes, it was rudimentary). But the map changed as combat did. It was pretty awesome.

I will say, when playing AD&D, without a tactical map, they were far more engaged than they usually are.

 

[kmdietri]

As a group that has recently moved to the wall, I have to disagree with all the negativity. We use the built in tokens from maptools, or the players went and found an image they liked and we made it a token. Heck, they could draw one if any of them had the skill to do so. On top of that, someone/something gets bloodied, I can change their token to reflect that with 2 clicks. I have, or can easily create, ALL the monster tokens I want. I got tired of having the wrong mini, or using dice to represent monsters.

Moving things? Piece of cake, they have a wireless mouse that gets passed around the table and they can move their tokens wherever they wish.

I agree 100% with the wall love. my laptop has 6 usb inputs so everyone at the table gets their own wireless mouse, so there's even less of a hastle.

We tried the table top, but someone had to be 'upside down' so to speak in terms of the map and token movement so the wall has worked a lot better.

 

[Oryan77]

A 46" 1.12 inch Samsung 5000? You can lie that down on your kitchen table and pick it up and move it after the game without any special modifications to the table.

I may just need to make a trip to the store to view these tvs in person. I have actually been considering buying a new tv for my wife to watch in another room when I'm bothering her with my xbox in the living room.

I could use it as a game table also. What would you suggest I use on top of it as far as glass/plexiglass so we don't mess up the tv?

And do you know of any problems with a tv being on its back like that for long periods of time?

 

[Oryan77]

Can anyone find any youtube videos where gamers are using a flat panel tv as a battlemat? I can't really find anything and I'm not really sure what to search for to get results. I keep getting reviews on tvs. Surely someone is doing this and has a video to show off their setup.

 

[mattcolville]

But, even still, I wouldn't want to use Maptool in real time to make a great map in 1 or 2 minutes flat.

OTOH, I can get awesome results with NWN in those sorts of time constraints, no problem.

Downloaded NWN and tried it, I think you're probably a power-user of the toolset and so what would be nigh-impenetrable to a normal GM is transparent to you. I think someone, a normal person, looking to map a map quick should expect to spend quite a lot of hours mastering the NWN toolset before you can get a great looking map in 1 minute.