Scott Thorne, a retailer, comments on recent events

[mudbunny]

Did they become insignificant or were made to be insignificant?

Yes.

It seems to be the attempt to make them appear insignificant is what happened in light of the "retro clones" and continued existence of OGL material and even full versions of OGL games.

Or could it be the start of a resurgence in some of the tropes and conceits that are prevalent in retro-clones? Is it possible that in 5E/6E we see a swing away from 3.X/4E towards OD&D/BECMI/AD&D??

This is because all didn't require the change, so again why did the change occur to begin with?

Because those that wanted the change outnumbered those that didn't? Either amongst the consumers or amongst the developers. Of course, because the company thinks that it will make a better (*cough*profitable*cough*) game.

 

[shadzar]

Yes.

D'oh! smart-ass.

Or could it be the start of a resurgence in some of the tropes and conceits that are prevalent in retro-clones? Is it possible that in 5E/6E we see a swing away from 3.X/4E towards OD&D/BECMI/AD&D??

Or it could be an acceptance of failure of 3.X/4e that the change was never really welcomed to begin with.

Because those that wanted the change outnumbered those that didn't? Either amongst the consumers or amongst the developers. Of course, because the company thinks that it will make a better (*cough*profitable*cough*) game.

Yes, a word to get choked on, because that one word you had to cough out, is likely the root cause of the change, ABOVE all other reasons for it.

Ah, the good old days of me and you arguing totally opposite positions...where is Mike at to tell us somehow we are both wrong and right, when we both already know that?

 

[Chainsaw Mage]

Digital WILL replace paper and in the not so distant future.

We WILL have flying cars.
We WILL have paperless offices.
We WILL have our own robot servants.

And all in the not so distant future!

 

[Chainsaw Mage]

double post

 

[mudbunny]

D'oh! smart-ass.

When you throw the pass so that the receiver has to jump 3 feet in the air to catch it, do you expect me to not go for the tackle??

Or it could be an acceptance of failure of 3.X/4e that the change was never really welcomed to begin with.

For some people, the shift of the pendulum towards 3.x/4E is a large failure. For others, it is a success.

Yes, a word to get choked on, because that one word you had to cough out, is likely the root cause of the change, ABOVE all other reasons for it.

More than likely. Diminishing returns, blahblahblah. (Not to dismiss the argument as being insignificant, but it has been beaten to death so many times that I don't think that it is really worth it to go down that rabbit hole.) When you boil everything down to the basics, the people in charge of D&D at WotC decided that it was time for a change.

Whether it was a good decision or a bad decision will be one that we are too close to (in terms of time) to determine. However, when considering whether it is good or not, I think that it is important to also look at the impact of the change on other companies who were in the right place at the right time with the right expertise to take advantage of that change. (cough*Paizo*cough*)

For example, if WotC *had* decided to stay with 3.X, would Paizo have the same importance in the RPG sphere as it does now?

Ah, the good old days of me and you arguing totally opposite positions...where is Mike at to tell us somehow we are both wrong and right, when we both already know that?

It's refreshing, actually. A discussion where both people are actually discussing as opposed to insulting and/or setting up straw men to attack.

 

[shadzar]

When you throw the pass so that the receiver has to jump 3 feet in the air to catch it, do you expect me to not go for the tackle??

Of course you don't go for the tackle when they are already in the end zone.

For some people, the shift of the pendulum towards 3.x/4E is a large failure. For others, it is a success.

And until it comes to a full stop, it will always swing back.

More than likely. Diminishing returns, blahblahblah. (Not to dismiss the argument as being insignificant, but it has been beaten to death so many times that I don't think that it is really worth it to go down that rabbit hole.) When you boil everything down to the basics, the people in charge of D&D at WotC decided that it was time for a change.

Whether it was a good decision or a bad decision will be one that we are too close to (in terms of time) to determine. However, when considering whether it is good or not, I think that it is important to also look at the impact of the change on other companies who were in the right place at the right time with the right expertise to take advantage of that change. (cough*Paizo*cough*)

For example, if WotC *had* decided to stay with 3.X, would Paizo have the same importance in the RPG sphere as it does now?

OH don't hide it, even as one of the VCLs or whatever you are called over there now WotC and HASBRO both has to take note of Paizo.

But that is still all based on your first cough...profitability.

Paizo, nor profit, will actually help D&D with any changes, only reduce the amount of red ink needed to create (if WotC stops using 3/2 page artwork they could reduce their red ink usage even more. )

I think Erik et all were pretty much going to release their version of OGL no matter what WotC did. I don't think, after the magazine fiasco, Erik was just going to sit happy to ride on WotC coattails. I always felt and expected something of a system from him even back during the days of The Dragon.

Wasn't quite sure what to expect, but expected something none the less.

Just so happens that project may have gotten pushed forward or to the top of the heap much quicker than was suspected by WotC's own actions that has put WotC in the position they are now in.

4th or not, I knew, felt it in my gut, something was going to come from Erik Mona in the way of a game system. There was just too much creativity there to keep it caged up.

I don't use Pathfinder, but glad that creativity didn't just go to waste and had an outlet to be put too, and happy other enjoy it.

It's refreshing, actually. A discussion where both people are actually discussing as opposed to insulting and/or setting up straw men to attack.

Is that all that still goes on over there?

 

[mudbunny]

And until it comes to a full stop, it will always swing back.

Yup. At some point in time, the "next big idea" will be old and tired, and the idea that is old and tired now will be "the next big idea".

OH don't hide it, even as one of the VCLs or whatever you are called over there now WotC and HASBRO both has to take note of Paizo.

I am certain that they do. WotC knows their weaknesses and knows their strengths, as does Paizo. They also know that they are not the only source of talented RPG designers out there. I am sure that they look at what Paizo is doing with PFRPG and go "that is really cool" or "that's an interesting way to do that" or "meh". They know that D&D 5E will show up eventually, as will PFRPG v2.0 or some other game, and it would be phenomenally stupid of them to ignore that.

I think Erik et all were pretty much going to release their version of OGL no matter what WotC did. I don't think, after the magazine fiasco, Erik was just going to sit happy to ride on WotC coattails. I always felt and expected something of a system from him even back during the days of The Dragon.

I got the impression (this was only based on the various blog posts he wrote, not of any insider knowledge or anything) that if WotC would have gotten the GSL out in a reasonable time limit, and with reasonable terms (in the view of 3pps), that he would have jumped both feet into 4E. But they didn't, and neither did he. (Personally, while it may have been a loss for D&D for Paizo to not be working on 4E, I think that it was/is good for RPGs as a whole. Now all we need is a kick-ass sci-fi RPG)

I don't use Pathfinder, but glad that creativity didn't just go to waste and had an outlet to be put too, and happy other enjoy it.

Agreed.

Is that all that still goes on over there?

The signal to noise ratios between here and there are dramatically different.

 

[shadzar]

I got the impression (this was only based on the various blog posts he wrote, not of any insider knowledge or anything) that if WotC would have gotten the GSL out in a reasonable time limit, and with reasonable terms (in the view of 3pps), that he would have jumped both feet into 4E. But they didn't, and neither did he. (Personally, while it may have been a loss for D&D for Paizo to not be working on 4E, I think that it was/is good for RPGs as a whole. Now all we need is a kick-ass sci-fi RPG)

1- Erik is another gamer like the rest of us. Our own game is what every gamer has at least once thought about having and holding the reigns to.

2- I think that GSL had to be PERFECT for that to happen though. "Either 3rd OR 4th", was never going to be allowed by 3PPs. Clark tried to get that passed through Linea and Scott on to WotC and/or HASBRO at the forefront of all other 3PPs as to be something that had to be addressed AND removed.

The GSL revoking rights to use the OGL just wasn't going to work.

Then I don't think Paizo would have been solely 4th edition. Paizo doesn't try to play "one true edition", and think they were the ones publishing my last in print Dragon 3 issues into introducing 3rd edition....not sure.

But even if starting heavy with 4th when 4th first came out, I can see Paizo would not have left the OGL arena if the OGL and GSL were compliant. There is just too much opportunity to capitalize on...monetarily and creatively speaking.

3- I forgot...so NOOOO to space opera RPGS! Just play RIFTS or Spelljammer, cause there has been way to many other bad ones to come and go. Well....with two more installments coming out, it might be a good time for someone to pitch an RPG to James Cameron set on Pandora. I know minis from that game and race would likely sell quicker than a Maralith in a wet t-shirt contest.

The signal to noise ratios between here and there are dramatically different.

Glad my browser can't even access it due to some "Whoops" error that still exists and was never fixed then when it was moved...not that the forums software itself is very welcoming.

 

[mudbunny]

2- I think that GSL had to be PERFECT for that to happen though. "Either 3rd OR 4th", was never going to be allowed by 3PPs. Clark tried to get that passed through Linea and Scott on to WotC and/or HASBRO at the forefront of all other 3PPs as to be something that had to be addressed AND removed.

The GSL revoking rights to use the OGL just wasn't going to work.

I agree. I think that the current GSL (as compared to the OGL) is the result of management changes, and difference in vision on where they (the managers) want D&D to go in the future. I would have loved to see it (4E) more open. Some of my favourite 3.X books are the Midnight Campaign setting and The Book of the Righteous, both of which are possible due to the OGL. At the same time, I don't begrudge WotC for doing what they felt was necessary to protect their IP.

But even if starting heavy with 4th when 4th first came out, I can see Paizo would not have left the OGL arena if the OGL and GSL were compliant. There is just too much opportunity to capitalize on...monetarily and creatively speaking.

Agreed.

3- I forgot...so NOOOO to space opera RPGS! Just play RIFTS or Spelljammer, cause there has been way to many other bad ones to come and go. Well....with two more installments coming out, it might be a good time for someone to pitch an RPG to James Cameron set on Pandora. I know minis from that game and race would likely sell quicker than a Maralith in a wet t-shirt contest.

Not Space Opera, but a good, hard sci-fi RPG.

 

[BryonD]

We WILL have flying cars.

...

Fair enough.
But those examples were wildly speculative.
I can already show you people using e-readers and PDFs on IPads.


I'm not saying something that doesn't exist will spring into being. I'm saying something that is happening, as a reality, right now, will happen even more in the future.

Someone could have talked 25 years ago about flying cars as being an example of how they would never stop listening to their music on vinyl. And yet their example didn't stand in the way of reality.

An equivalent to your flying cars would be virtual reality and/or hologram based online shared space gaming. That would be awesome. But they may never happen.

virtual reality <=> flying cars
digital media replacing books <=> digital music replacing vinyl and CDs.