Skill Challenges: Please stop

And in the absence of wandering monsters and resource management, there is unlkiely to be a time constraint. In games where spending longer means spending resources and possibly increasing danger, this problem simply doesn't exist.

Fair point. This does require a more proactive DMing style than many people are used to, however--it's always easier to sit back, let the players do their thing, and respond to them than it is to track their time usage and interject new elements.

But then, that's why 1E had all those wandering monster charts, isn't it? To simplify "active DMing."

*has small epiphany*
 

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I would really recommend going to Piratecat's Heroic Tier campaign analysis thread and skimming through to read the various skill challenges listed therein, as well as the discussion about them after the fact (what worked, what did not).

Here is the first big 'Mini-Game' skill challenge I presented to my players, at the conclusion of their first adventure. I present it to you, warts and all. [Note: I haven't changed the 'number of failures/successes' here.] This is the hand-out I provided to my players, after the setup for the battle. I learned a few things from this, but this worked extremely well for my group. I'd be glad to answer any questions you have about it.

Again, this uses what we nicknamed 'Mini-Game' style. The players are operating under a set of mostly known parameters towards a goal. Unlike a normal skill challenge, they are totally aware of the parameters and the of what their actions can be used for...though you'll note the text calls out them doing other things. Which they did.

When I have a chance, I'll post a different kind of skill challenge later.

[sblock]Into the Fire - Stormwrack Assault!
Player Skill Challenge

Arriving at the rendezvous point, it becomes clear to you that the Stormwrack Corsairs have a sizable force in tow, outnumbering your force by at least three-to-one. You have the element of surprise on your side, but not a lot of time, a fact illustrated when the Captain yells to his men to prepare to get the ship underway. It is clear he feels that they have waited long enough.

Sergeant Draymond signals you that the time to strike is now. The corsairs must be taught that the islands are inviolate, justice must be acquired for the slain and answers to how the corsairs managed to penetrate the veil must be found. You steel yourselves for the assault.

It begins NOW.


Details:
Each round after the first, a corsair will attack each player, buying time for the ship to depart. If hit, you will take damage and possibly be poisoned. Healing a character, using a transition skill or using a secondary skill, does not count as a success toward the challenge. Note that some skills have both primary and secondary uses. Multiple successful uses of a primary skill will result in the difficulty of success for that skill going up, as the corsairs adapt to your strategems. Primary skills will become more difficulty immediately, secondary skills will become more difficult to execute gradually, while transition skills will remain at a fixed difficulty.

If you win the Skill Challenge, you will prevent the Stormwrack Corsairs from escaping. If you lose the Skill Challenge, the Corsairs ship will successfully set sail and depart. Regardless of the success of the Skill Challenge, there are two secondary goals that may be accomplished. These are:

1. Apprehend the Corsair Captain for justice at Castle Arbok.
2. Retrieve the copy of the Ritual of the Silver Veil from their ship.

All skill checks are standard actions.


The DM may award you a challenge success for a skill use not listed here, if a creative use of a skill, feat or power is offered by a player. Action points may be spent during the Skill Challenge, but not for additional actions during a round, except for healing, stunts or second winds. Unless the DM thinks that it is cool or fun, in which case ROCK ON.

The assault takes place on two fronts. The Shore and the Ship. Skill uses have different applications towards the challenge depending on where the players are located. The attacking ArbokGuard force starts by rushing out of the trees into the corsair force on the beach. Players must perform one of the ‘transition skills’ to move between one location to another. No one can be moved from one front to the other using methods such as slides, forced shifts or similar movement powers unless it can move a unit a minimum of two squares.

Primary Skills:

Acrobatics – Moderate Difficulty (Scale the ship’s rigging and cut her sails)
Athletics - Moderate ()
Dungeoneering – Hard Difficulty (find the secret hiding place of the stolen Guard Ritual Tome; can be completed only once and only attempted on the Ship; worth two successes)
Insight – Hard Difficulty (Pierce the veil of the WindSeeker’s protective Glamour, allowing him to be attacked normally)
Religion – Hard/Moderate (invoke a blessing of Nuidos to cause the sea to hamper the Ship’s departure; lower difficulty is for an adherent of Nuidos or one who has recently made an offering to her, can only be completed once)
Arcana – Hard Difficulty (Use Knowledge of Rune Magic to weaken Captain to normal strength)
Any Combat Power – Moderate Difficulty (take down a corsair.)
Thievery – Hard Difficulty (Steal the Windseeker’s components pouch, preventing the ritual, only one success possible)

Transition Skills:
Acrobatics – Moderate Difficulty (Character runs up/down mooring lines)
Athletics – Moderate Difficulty (Character scales the side of the ship up or down)
Intimidate – Moderate Difficulty (Run shouting on the gangplank, forcing corsairs aside)
Endurance – Moderate Difficulty (Swim through water to reach/from jetty ladder)
Any push, pull, or slide power – Moderate Difficulty

Secondary Skills:
Acrobatics – Moderate Difficulty (avoid an attack or protect an ally from attack this turn)
Perception – Moderate Difficutly (give an ally +2 on any Primary skill check. Max of two people can aid an ally on any one check. Ally must be on same front.)
Stealth – Hard Difficulty (do not draw an attack next turn.)
Aid another – Moderate Difficulty (give an ally +2 on a shared skill’s check. Max of two people can aid an ally on any one check. Ally must be on the same front.)
Bluff – Moderate Difficulty (Draw an attack from the Captain or Windspeaker onto yourself).
Heal – Moderate Difficulty (Remove a poison-dazed condition from another character)



Each round, one hero on deck or ship may be subject to the attack by the Captain or Windspeaker.

Corsair Attack: +5 vs AC, 1d6+3 damage and possibly dazed for one round
Captain Attack: (normally Shore): +10 vs. AC, 1d10+3 damage (Blood Moon Cutlass)
Windspeaker Attack (normally Ship): 1d6+4 vs. Will (Slash of Ill Wind )


The regular corsairs are minions and will fall quickly at first, but will quickly use group tactics and caution as their brothers fall. The Captain bears the Blood Moon Cutlass, a vicious curved blade of Red Steel, which shines with an evil glow. The Captain’s armor appears to be a patchwork of loose metal scales, but inscribed with ancient runes, granting him more resistance than his fellows. The Windspeaker is enshrouded in a glamour of ghostly winds and mists swirling about him, making him virtually unassailable until dismissed.


To win the Skill Challenge, players must accomplish 12 successes before they obtain 6 failures. Remember that successes at secondary or transition skills do NOT count towards this number, only primary skills.[/sblock]
 

Okay, so here's another "find the hidden dungeon" type skill challenge I used a few months ago for a trip through the swamp.

[sblock]TO THE ZIGGURAT
Level 8 Skill Challenge
XP 1750

Setup: The pcs attempt to reach the ziggurat, moving through the Lithski Fens. Moving into the swamp is slow, landmarks are hard to find, swamp gas severely limits visibility and insects constantly bite and sting.

Every three days is a round for this skill challenge. Each round, every pc must make one check of their choice. At the end of each round, each pc must also make an Endurance check to avoid exposure to disease; see Complications, below. Note also that certain of the possible random encounters in the swamp may also have an effect on the skill challenge.

Because of the harsh environment of the Lithski Fens, it is typically very difficult to take an extended rest. Doing so takes a full three days of time (finding a suitable place, managing to stay dry and comfortable and then returning to the trail of the yuan-ti), during which time random encounter checks will be made as normal. There simply aren't many safe places to hole up; however, after three, five, eight and ten successes, the pcs pass by one of the landmarks on the map, which offers them a bit of a better resting place. See Landmarks, below. In short (assuming the pcs gain one success per round):

Rounds 1-3: Standard
Round 4: Split willow
Round 5: Standard
Round 6: The Algae-Choked Pond
Round 7-8: Standard
Round 9: The Cranberry Bog
Round 10: Standard
Round 11: The Blue Mud
Round 12: Standard

The pcs should have an explicit understanding of the mechanics of this skill challenge before it begins.

Level: 8

Complexity: 5 (requires 12 successes before 3 failures)

Primary Skill: Nature

Nature (DC 20 or 30; 1 success or 2 successes; only one character per round can earn successes): The character manages to keep the party headed in the right direction. Slowly but surely, the party makes progress. Alternatively, the character can attempt to find shortcuts and use a more direct route than that indicated on the map, choosing the higher DC but a chance of gaining two successes.

If the characters have the map and follow it (using the lower Nature check DC), they gain a +1 bonus from it. Failure on either check results in a single failure accruing.

When the pcs find the landmarks, they have certain other options; see Landmarks, below.

Secondary Skills: Athletics, Endurance, Heal, Nature, Perception

Athletics (DC 19): The character pushes hard into the brush and muck, helping to clear a path. The primary Nature check for the day gets a +1 bonus. Only one character may grant this bonus each round.

Endurance (DC 8): The character focuses on avoiding filth, keeping dirty water out of his eyes and mouth and so on in order to avoid exposure to blinding sickness. A successful roll means that the character need not make an Endurance check at the end of the round, although a natural 1 is a failure even if the end result is above 8.

Heal (DC 16 or special): The character ministers to one ally, helping her avoid exposure to blinding sickness. Success means that the character need not make an Endurance check at the end of the day, although a natural 1 automatically fails this check.

Alternatively, a character can use a Heal check to help someone already suffering from blinding sickness, in which case the character's Heal check replaces the victim's own Endurance check against the disease.

Nature (DC 20): The character aids the primary Nature check. Success grants a +2 bonus; failure indicates that the primary Nature check takes a -1 penalty. As many characters can aid the primary check each round as wish to; all modifiers are cumulative.

Perception (DC 14): The character attempts to aid the primary Nature check by spotting landmarks, watching for troublesome terrain and similar things. Success grants a +2 bonus to the primary Nature check for the round; failure inflicts a -1 penalty. Any number of characters may attempt this check each round.
L
Landmarks: When the pcs reach the map's landmarks (a huge split willow, a large algae-choked pool surrounded by three rock piles, a cranberry bog and an area of blue mud) they have several additional options. First, at a landmark the pcs can stop and take an extended rest in a single day, and there are places to rest safe from random encounters (located on a single Nature check, DC 20). Second, each of the landmarks offers the pcs other options.

The Split Willow: This landmark is a large split willow on a high mound of dirt and swamp grass. It is relatively dry. On the round during which the pcs pass by the willow, they have the following additional option:

Athletics (DC 12): That willow sure is tall! If a pc climbs it, they can see which direction the land falls in, which (according to the map) leads to the second landmark. The pcs can earn one success this way; a failure results in the pc falling when 40' up, suffering 4d10 points of damage, but does not count as a failure for the skill challenge.

The Algae-Choked Pool: This large pile, surrounded by piles of gravel and rocks, is in a wetter area. The pcs must really slog to make progress, and their speed of travel slows to a crawl in this area. However, a bunch of herbs useful in healing poultices and similar things grow around the pool. Additionally, there is a rickety boat On the round during which the pcs pass by the algae-choked pool, they have the following additional options:

Heal (DC 15): The character gathers herbs that will help protect against the various bugs, swamp foot and other challenges of swamp travel. This allows the pcs to move faster, earning them one success on the challenge. A failure does not count against the challenge and carries no penalty.

Thievery (DC 19): If characters wish to take the boat, they can speed up their progress. However, it is old and in terrible shape. Characters skilled with their hands can try to repair and improve it with the materials available. Making the boat usable at all requires two Thievery checks, DC 19; until the pcs make two such successful checks, the party cannot take the boat. (Note that these checks count as the pcs' checks for the round.) Once the boat is usable, the characters get a +2 bonus on their primary Nature checks until they reach the cranberry bog, where they must disembark.

The Cranberry Bog: This area is tangled with cranberry bushes, which grow in shallow, swampy water. The boat cannot move through these; the pcs are back to slogging on foot. The cranberry bog goes on for a mile, which is a full six days' travel (two rounds in the skill challenge). It is full of small poisonous snakes, which are a constant hazard while the pcs travel through it. Unless they take steps to avoid the snakes, each pc loses a healing surge during this journey and gains a sensitivity to venom (vulnerable 5 poison). Each character gets a saving throw at the end of each additional round of the skill challenge to throw this off. During this period, the pcs have the following extra options available to them:

Acrobatics (DC 19): The character avoids being snake bitten.

Athletics (DC 20): The character helps cut a trail through the bog, making everyone's journey slightly quicker. The party gains a success. Failure carries no penalty. The party can gain one success with this skill in the cranberry bog.

Endurance (DC 21): Although she is bitten like everyone else and loses a healing surge, the character avoids gaining venom sensitivity.

Heal (DC 19): The character treats one ally, removing its venom sensitivity.

Nature (DC 14): The character avoids being bitten by snakes.

The Blue Mud: The characters reach a higher area of bluish clay and mud. Those areas above the water hold tracks quite well, and almost immediately the pcs spot an area that has obviously been cleared of vegetation and rocks have been set up to provide firmer footing or perhaps seating. A large stone altar topped with an enormous serpent's skull dominates the scene. The blue mud goes on for miles; although travel is quicker here than in most of the wetter areas, it is also quite treacherous, sucking at boots and feet. The pcs have the following additional options while in this area:

Athletics (DC 20): If the group makes a group Athletics check this round and succeeds, they earn a success by moving quickly through the mud. The group earns one success this way; failure does not earn a penalty, but the party wastes the round. The party may delay one day while one pc makes a Thievery check instead (see below).

Endurance (DC 20): Likewise, the party may make a group Endurance check to earn a success, although in this case it is sheer perseverance that does the trick and swamp shoes do not aid the party.

Thievery (DC 10): The character lashes together branches to form swamp shoes (think snow shoes for a marsh). This gives the primary Nature check for this round a +2 bonus. Alternatively, one character can make a Thievery check to aid a group Athletics check (see above), in which case the party is delayed one day but each pc gains a +2 bonus on their Athletics check. However, the character that makes this Thievery check is considered to fail the group Athletics check.

Complications: At the end of each round of the skill challenge (every three days), each pc must make an Endurance check, DC 8, or be exposed to blinding sickness. (A natural 1 on this check results in exposure even if the final result is above 8.) Make an attack: +12 vs. Fortitude; Hit: the target suffers the initial effect of blinding sickness (DMG 49). However, rather than making an Endurance check each day, the character need only make one per round of the skill challenge (three days).

Success: The pcs find the Ziggurat of a Thousand Serpents- but did they find it in time? Take note of how many primary checks the pcs had to make in order to determine how many days it took to find and reach the pyramid and consult the Timeline (see above).

Failure: If the characters accrue three failures on the skill check (and note that only failures on primary Nature checks count for this purpose), they cannot find the ziggurat and become hopelessly lost in the swamp. See Lost! below, for details.[/sblock]

You'll notice one thing about both this and the "find the island" skill check that I posted earlier that violates all the skill challenge advice you normally get- they are actual real challenges to getting to the dungeon, and if you fail- you don't get there. One thing about many skill challenges that I find annoying is that they are meaningless. The whole "a skill challenge should never be an impediment to finding the adventure" approach is fine, but it's like the secret door that leads to the hidden dungeon level: if the pcs are automatically going to find it, it's hardly hidden! Since I run a sandbox with lots going on in the world, sometimes the exploration component of finding that one place is as much a part of the adventure as actually delving into that one place, and I absolutely do not mind if pcs miss that hidden dungeon level- because it may come up later, with the same group or another. It's like the search for the Fountain of Youth; if anyone can find it first time out, it's not much of a search.

In contrast to the one I posted above, this SC was explicit, with a handout holding most of the details given to each of the players. They didn't get the details on the landmarks, though.

How this played out- the pcs basically made every possible check and IIRC never failed a one! What made this challenge cool was the amount of roleplaying along the way. The challenge took about 1/3 of a session because of the exploration component and all the rp; that's fine by my group, we sometimes have several sessions in a row with no combat (albeit rarely).

There were a couple of random encounters interspersed along the way, and IIRC there were a couple of extra bonuses picked up when they negotiated their way through some bullywugs.

Mostly the pcs did as expected, though I do recall the warden using form of eagle's splendor or whatever it's called to gain some air in order to get a look around a few times. And that's okay- I don't mind if I predict the pcs' approach pretty well, it makes my job easier!
 

Yeah, I agree there's nothing inherently wrong with an SC having quite serious consequences. I wouldn't generally kill a party outright with one, and in MOST cases you don't want the consequences to halt the adventure outright, but the "SCs only grant some advantage/bypass some disadvantage" concept seems too weak to me. One of the issues is it encourages players to simply optimize for combat. Sure, passing SCs is nice, but if you never HAVE to overcome them you can just basically ignore even trying to up your chances. I think that contributes to the 'arms race' I see in some games with 4e where the PCs optimize, the DM throws on harder encounters, etc.

This is also a problem with any technique which doesn't give you some actual mechanical reasons to up your skill bonuses etc. Seems to me another reason for a good dose of mechanics in non-combat situations.
 

Yeah, I agree there's nothing inherently wrong with an SC having quite serious consequences. I wouldn't generally kill a party outright with one, and in MOST cases you don't want the consequences to halt the adventure outright, but the "SCs only grant some advantage/bypass some disadvantage" concept seems too weak to me.

On the other hand, this is fantastic newbie-DM-to-Skill-Challenges advice.

With experience, you learn not only why the rule is there to start with, but when and how to break it, as well.
 

[MENTION=1210]the Jester[/MENTION]: I don't personally care for 4e, but I bet your game would be a strong counter-example, were I able to play in it. It sounds like it rocks!
 

I unfortunately don't have any typed-up examples of skill challenges to share, because I treat them, well, kinda like combats. Where a published adventure may show a tactical map with the starting positions of every monster denoted, I sketch something on the battlemat (often improvised) and place some monsters down in a pattern that looks interesting. Frequently when a challenge comes up that looks like it's best resolved with a pile of cumulative successes instead of a roll or two, I jot down some notes about what skills may provide easier target numbers and which would be more peripheral, and then make adjustments in-play as the challenge plays out. Someone made a critical Insight check? Okay, that'll lower an appropriate Bluff DC by about 5.

(This isn't to say that I don't pre-plan a few, but often my notes will be something like "DC 18: Bluff, Dungeoneering, Diplomacy, Intimidate; DC 24 History, Arcana, Religion, Nature; DC 18 (secondary) Insight, Perception; 24+ Per roll detects smell of absinthe, opens Streetwise approach". Same as my notes on a planned encounter are frequently things like "L4 Battle-Sergeant, 2 L3 poleaxers, 2 L1 archers, 6 minions?", and then I dig out the appropriate index cards when the time comes to run the conflict.)

The more important the skill challenge may be, though, the more skills can come into play. A lot of skill challenges favor one type of character: you know, like the ones where all the primary skills are Int-based, and the most anyone else can hope is to make a roll that gives someone else a +2, possibly at a much higher DC. To my mind such a challenge isn't fulfilling the primary design goal of getting everyone around the table involved. So if a skill challenge has dread consequences, I'd like there to be physical, social and mental ways to contribute in some meaningful fashion. It's really the counterpoint to the design goal that gives every class something interesting to do in a combat -- they should all have something interesting to do in an encounter that is as important as a combat.
 



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