Skill Challenges: Please stop

[Raven Crowking]

The problem is that there's really no decision-making involved in searching a room. I mean, in the absence of a time constraint, you're gonna search everything you can think of to search, in every way you can think of to search it.

And in the absence of wandering monsters and resource management, there is unlkiely to be a time constraint. In games where spending longer means spending resources and possibly increasing danger, this problem simply doesn't exist.


RC

 

[surfarcher]

@surfarcher Yeah, I could put 'notes' in quotes. Mine are often just some random chicken scratches, lol. Those details could also be riffed in play, but I do like to think about each point for a minute and try to come up with some way each element might come into play, even if I don't write it down.

I figured you'd say something like that I think we are probably at very similar places in terms of SC planning and prep. TBH I mainly wanted to clarify for the wider audience

First off, in the two and a half years I've run my 4e campaign, I think I've only had one skill challenge that was solely a social encounter. Aside from that one, the social aspect to the skill challenge was only part of it.
...snip...
TL;DR: Skill challenges are meant to model complex non-combat encounters. You can't expect good results unless you put some work into making the SC more complex as well, otherwise it turns into "I attack with my sword", but with skills.

I think variety is the spice of life with many skill challenges! Unless you are using the SC mechanism in the background to track success over an extended period of time you need the SC to be dynamic and you need spice.

Here's an example.
The PCs in my regular game were confronted by a Silver Dragon. She was close to a tier above their level... And accusing them of stealing some of her eggs. A little negotiation (no SC here but some skills were used) and they realised she was bluffing. They realised she wanted their help but was too proud to ask outright.

Turns out a caravan the party had passed going the other way, with over 75 humans, half-orcs and orcs guarding it, had the eggs. And an arcane device that prevented her from getting within several hundred feet. The SC became getting to and destroying the device so the Dragon could wreak her vengance, regain her eggs... And become a powerful ally for the PCs at some stage in the future when they are in great need.

The SC ran on a large full-colour map, like a combat. I made it clear this wasn't a combat and that the PCs should consider it more of a skirmish. Terrain, traps, the placing of guards, etc made it an exercise in the tactical application of movement, skills, powers and more.

I ran this about four months ago and it still gets mentioned as a campaign highlight. So mix it up kids!

I don't agree with everything in the articles on the ars ludi site I linked before, but there is alot of brain food there. This one also seems appropriate to the discussion here as well.

The short version is - if a player is excited about something their player does or describes/roleplays something cool, you either let them succeed and add a complication to represent the failure ("The Duke agrees to the Treaty, but demands that you marry his daughter") or the environment fails ("You parkour your way up the wall as the thugs stare up at you in wonder, but when you get to the top the wall crumbles under your feet and you fall into the fast-flowing river on the other side!")

In contrast, if the PCs just say "I'll make a Diplomacy check" then they can "just fail it". This rewards PCs describing what they are doing and give the DM fun opportunities to make the PCs lives more interesting, throw plot twists, or even spark whole adventures!

Yep. That's very similar to how I like to run things

 

[surfarcher]

And in the absence of wandering monsters and resource management, there is unlkiely to be a time constraint. In games where spending longer means spending resources and possibly increasing danger, this problem simply doesn't exist.


RC

heh

But I like wandering monsters and still use them sometimes

Just not "random monsters"

The devil's in the details

 

[pemerton]

I'd suggest it's sometimes more about putting some thought and imagination into it, rather than writing actual notes. My notes are more memory triggers than definitions and I find this also encourage me to adlib.

Agreed with this.

When I run a skill challenge, I like to have a general backstory in mind - for a social encounter, that would be some basic info about the NPCs (who are they, where are they from, what have they been doing), for a travel encounter that would be some basic info about the terrain and possible inhabitants, etc etc - but I like to leave the details pretty loose, so that I can inject interesting stuff into the encounter in response to the decisions that the players make. I find this is a good way to drive a situation forward.

 

[surfarcher]

Yeah that's exactly the kind of thing I like to chew over and scribble the odd reminder about!

I also like to brainstorm some peripheral odds and ends. So for a social encounter I might try to com up with some bystanders and a few environmental thoughts. For a travel scenario I might try to think up a few ideas about who or what they might run into or see along the way.

Often those odds and ends don't get used during that particular encounter/SC/whatever -you-like-to-call-it. But that's fine too! If that happens I'll often type in a few more notes later, to jog my memory and imagination a bit, then file it all away in my "unused ideas" folder.

I find an "unused ideas" directory, along with files of random thoughts, unused NPCs, unused names, unused places, unused encounters, unused situations, etc... These things all leave me in a place where I can quickly and seamlessly adlib.

For me preparing to adlib is a big part of the whole game. Sure I make plans, but things often unfold in a way quite different to those plans. Thats where a set of unused stuff comes in handy!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In contrast, if the PCs just say "I'll make a Diplomacy check" then they can "just fail it". This rewards PCs describing what they are doing and give the DM fun opportunities to make the PCs lives more interesting, throw plot twists, or even spark whole adventures!

It also penalizes people who enjoy playing RPGs with their buddies buy aren't strong role players.

I've played with a LOT of gamers just like this, and enjoyed their contributuions enough that I wouldn't want to penalize their lack of thespian ability and drive them away. If all they can do is tell me what their PCs do in the language of game mechanics, so be it.

 

[Iron Sky]

It also penalizes people who enjoy playing RPGs with their buddies buy aren't strong role players.

I've played with a LOT of gamers just like this, and enjoyed their contributuions enough that I wouldn't want to penalize their lack of thespian ability and drive them away. If all they can do is tell me what their PCs do in the language of game mechanics, so be it.

There is no penalty. The uninspired/shy/new players get the rules as written - Player: "I try X, I rolled Y" DM: "You fail/succeed." They loose nothing by allowing other players' great ideas to stand and just adding complications for failed rolls - maybe it will inspire the other players to try it too.

Or it won't. Either way, sometimes letting good ideas work in spite of bad rolls probably makes your game more fun for rewarding action rather than punishing poor mechanical choices at character creation. It's just another way to say "yes" to your players while still having a consequence for the mechanical (roll-playing) part of the game.

On the other hand, game mechanics can penalize people who have great ideas without the mechanics to back it up. Ever had a player that had the perfect plan for the situation at hand, everyone at the table is grinning, nodding their heads, and saying "awesome" then have your roll fail and it doesn't work?

I have - and I've probably done it to my players while I was running games out of ignorance of a way to do it better.

I now have an extra tool in my tool-belt so I can be a better GM and run more interesting games. I don't know that I'll use it all the time, but at least its an option now.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There is no penalty. The uninspired/shy/new players get the rules as written - Player: "I try X, I rolled Y" DM: "You fail/succeed." They loose nothing by allowing other players' great ideas to stand and just adding complications for failed rolls - maybe it will inspire the other players to try it too.

My apologies- I misunderstood what you meant by your phrase,

they can "just fail it".

as meaning they would simply fail, as opposed to what you seem to actually mean is you won't grant them any leeway based on food role-play...since they aren't doing any.

My bad!

 

[KarinsDad]

A few people have written down some skill examples (i.e. not really a full blown challenge, more of just a few rolls for a specific goal) and some skill challenge examples for larger scale combat related stuff.

But, could we get a lot of examples from a lot of people (with some details) of actual skill challenges in their games that they thought were good? Not necessarily the skill challenge DC setup by the DM and not just a few dice rolls, but the overall outcome of what happened in the game itself. The skill DCs are all fine and well, but they are merely the skeleton. They don't flesh out the player interaction in the game, especially player interaction where the DM set the DC as X and the player used that same skill totally differently where the DC should be y instead. Unexpected uses of the skills is just as important as the pre-determined uses. With the skill challenges that I've seen from WotC, they don't seem to have a good knack for creating them. Or, maybe I still just don't get it. And, it's one thing to say that skill challenges are so great, but I'd prefer some illustrations that demonstrate the point. Thanks.

 

[Piratecat]

KD, I have a bunch in my campaign analysis thread, but it's huge and I don't have time right now to track 'em down. I'll do so later and post them here.