LOS question

[gilthan3]

I think my group and I have been playing this wrong, and would love some clarity on this.

If you've got a group of monsters lined up in rows, how deep in the ranks can players target the monsters?

Can a wizard cast magic missle on the orc wizard, with 8 orcs directly in the way, or can he not see him? If an archer tried to shoot at the same target, does it get more than +4 AC for cover?
Is there a point where you just can't target someone anymore, because of soo many mobs between you and it.

Thanks in advance,
Gilthan3

 

[Ranes]

I don't have my books on me, so I can't give you references.

The archer can see the orc wizard. The intervening creatures merely provide the wizard with soft cover (+4 AC).

I can't remember where but there is a reference somewhere in the rules to varying degrees of cover. It might be reasonable to rule that, given the number of intervening orcs, the wizard gets +8 AC.

From what you've told us, however, the orc wizard does not have total cover. Therefore, the party can see him and the party wizard can absolutely guarantee a hit from a successfully cast magic missile.

 

[R-Hero]

I'm pretty sure, without the book in front of me, that the spell description of Magic Missle states the spell works if the castor can see any portion of the target.

 

[frankthedm]

Creatures don't generally block line of sight. Typically it is just the +4. The 3.5 DMG has some discussion on determining greater cover.

3.0 it worked like this

25% cover -2 ~ 50 % cover -4 ~ 75% cover -8 ~ 90% cover -10

 

[Sekhmet]

To compound on the previous posts, Magic Missile unerringly strikes it's target, so long as you can see the target when you cast the spell.
Frank's got a great post regarding cover in relation to other ranged attacks.

 

[Dross]

For LoS my only take on the MM casting is maybe needing a SPOT check to determine if you can correctly identify the orc wizard or some part of the body. If the orc wizard hadn't cast yet, it is hard to distinguish for some reason.

More than likely the average combat wouldn't require it though.

 

[irdeggman]

For LoS my only take on the MM casting is maybe needing a SPOT check to determine if you can correctly identify the orc wizard or some part of the body. If the orc wizard hadn't cast yet, it is hard to distinguish for some reason.

More than likely the average combat wouldn't require it though.

If the DM tells the player there is an orc there then the PC can see it well enough to determine its race and thus has line of sight.


3,5 rules -

PHB pg 130 has a picture with clarifying text about drawing a line from anypart of one square to any part of another square and as long as it doesn't cross or pass through a square that blocks line of sight then there is line of sight.

Don't confuse line of sight with line of effect or with the effects of cover.

PHB pg 151 test in picture "Lidda has line of sight to both orc and gnoll. Both recieve cover (one from a wall one from an ally of Lidda's).

Concealment (PHB pg 152) doesn't block line of sight - total concealment does (that is in order to have total concealment your foe must not have line of sight).

PHB pg 251 magic missile

"The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell."

 

[Dross]

Can a wizard cast magic missle on the orc wizard, with 8 orcs directly in the way, or can he not see him?

If the DM tells the player there is an orc there then the PC can see it well enough to determine its race and thus has line of sight.

I'm talking about identifying that one specific orc in a group of orcs.

For me it runs (if no PC has seen the orc wizard cast a spell):
DM: you see a group of 9 orcs, one of which you know is a wizard.
Player: I cast MM on the orc wizard.
DM: Which one is the orc wizard?
PC: Probably the one wearing different clothes, no armour, not wielding a great big axe, different face painting etc.
DM: Roll spot check. (player rolls high enough to spot orc wizard), the one at the back is holding a staff. How much does your MM do?


An orc in a group of non-orcs, unlikely to be a Spot check without some other mitigating factors.

 

[Vegepygmy]

For me it runs (if no PC has seen the orc wizard cast a spell):
DM: you see a group of 9 orcs, one of which you know is a wizard.
Player: I cast MM on the orc wizard.
DM: Which one is the orc wizard?
PC: Probably the one wearing different clothes, no armour, not wielding a great big axe, different face painting etc.
DM: Roll spot check. (player rolls high enough to spot orc wizard), the one at the back is holding a staff. How much does your MM do?

I don't follow this example at all. How does the PC know one of the orcs is a wizard in the first place? If it's because he's holding a staff, wearing different clothes, or whatever, then obviously the PC has already spotted and identified him.

I can understand if the PC knows (or more correctly, believes) there is an orc wizard among the nine as-yet-indistiguishable orcs because someone told him: "This band of orcs is led by an orc wizard," or something like that, but if the DM tells the players that they know one of the orcs is a wizard, I would certainly assume they can tell which one it is.

 

[Dross]

I don't follow this example at all. How does the PC know one of the orcs is a wizard in the first place? If it's because he's holding a staff, wearing different clothes, or whatever, then obviously the PC has already spotted and identified him.

Not everything is obvious at first glance in every encounter (at least I don't run it that way) because of... say, lighting, how bunched the orcs are, how bunched the PCs are, smoke, etc. Maybe staff wasn't the best qualifier, but I don't see why that should invalidate the process.

I can understand if the PC knows (or more correctly, believes) there is an orc wizard among the nine as-yet-indistiguishable orcs because someone told him: "This band of orcs is led by an orc wizard," or something like that, but if the DM tells the players that they know one of the orcs is a wizard, I would certainly assume they can tell which one it is.

Yes there are many ways for the players/PCs to know/believe/think/assume that one of the orcs is a wizard, such as what you have provided. And for orcs it is is probably fairly easy in most cases. But I used the OP's example. I didn't think that it was important to have examples of how/what they knew, just the process of why Spot might be required.

I'm not sure that the process is helped by all the extras here (and yes, I'm expanding things too far to go advocate here):
The PCs have been whittling down orc forces for a while now. The info that the PCs have is that an orc wizard leads these orcs but they haven't found him yet.
DM: Down the corridor you see a group of orcs. (or the party has only noticed the orcs because of a wizard spell going of in their midst, or an orc has shouted, "Wizard, they are here" and someone understands Orcish). Only the first couple of orcs can be seen clearly since the corridor is only 5" wide and the lighting is not the best.
Player: If the wizard is here I want to cast MM on him (or I want to target the wizard, or who was that orc calling to?).
DM: How will you determine which one is the orc wizard (or who cast the spell, or who the orc was talking to)?
PC: Probably the one wearing different clothes, or in no armour, probably not wielding a great big axe, different face painting etc. He will most liekly be different to the other orcs somehow.
DM: Roll spot check. (player rolls high enough to spot the couple of details that are different from the other orcs), the one at the back is the only one that appears to be different to the other orcs. Some feathers around the neck and a crossbow in one hand. All the other orcs have either a battleaxe or are wielding bows.
PC: That is the one that is most likely to be the wizard I'll target him.