Herores of the Fallen Lands - Are Slayers underpowered?

[Prestidigitalis]

He won't have the stats for it anyway, since he seems to think it a good idea to make a vain effort to keep up to Slayer HP, and hence won't have the Charisma or Wisdom for it.

Now now, you guys are being mean. KD has a right to his own point of view, and to express it here.

As someone once said, "Can't we all just get along?"

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I couldn't resist the cheapshot

You're right though, that was petty of me. I'll be good from now on. My sig is mostly in reference to the silly edition wars, but it should just apply in general.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No one says his point of view is not perfectly legitimate. But he shoulf not take it as an offense if we deduct from his elaborations, that it seems unreasonable from his point of view to invest in this feat.

edit:
if he takes it as an offense, i will apologize.

But it just unnerves me if you just calculate DPR to 2 or 3 decimals to prove that something is overpowered...
The problem of clerics being able to do everything in 3.5 was a completely different thing. (But even those statements were only true when making certain assumptions about available feats, certain levels, magic items and a lenient DM)

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

No one says his point of view is not perfectly legitimate. But he shoulf not take it as an offense if we deduct from his elaborations, that it seems unreasonable from his point of view to invest in this feat.

I don't even necessarily think that he finds it an unreasonable investment, so much as that in the builds he chooses to represent his arguments, they are skewed to show extreme cases that help support his claims. They, as I have pointed out, do not always reflect the reality of what people bring to the table.

I know from having read Prestidigitalis' personal experiences with it, that it is well worth having that 15 in Wis/Cha to take that feat. I think a lot of others have the same leanings. It's a good feat, and easily justifiable (for nearly any character) to slot the stat points to get it, especially in the case of a Rogue or Thief, where it helps out in several key class skills.

There are many other builds and instances where this is true. Look at things like Polearm Gamblers, to name one example. You just can't get away with sinking a pre-adjustment 18 into Strength. Lots of builds are like that, even for Essentials characters. Personally, for those (and other) reasons, I have never been fond of using the 18/14 stat array. The little extra damage and the +1 to hit I find are not worth the sacrifices in other areas.

 

[MrMyth]

Prove it.

Here are my numbers:

Level 1 Human Thief
Dex(20) +5
Rogue's Trick: Acrobat's Trick, Tactical Trick
Background: Gritty Sergeant (Rapier)

Feat: Surprising Charge
Feat: Light Blade Expertise

As others have noted, I don't think that guy represents the average 1st level Thief. And I have one big issue with your math - assuming that the thief can regularly charge into Combat Advantage with Acrobat's Trick. I've found that getting CA for rogues isn't hard, but often involves shifting around an enemy. If your thief starts next to an enemy, you will not be able to back away and charge into the flank without taking at least one OA. Thus, a lot of your assume damage - from Acrobatic's Trick and Surprising Charge - is not available nearly as often as you are claiming. Sure, Acrobatic's Trick itself might be reasonable to use if you start your turn in flanking, but this idea about being able to bounce in and out of combat via move actions... not sure I buy it.

But sure, I'm game, let's see how the PHB Rogue measures up.

Level 1 Human Rogue, Brutal Scoundrel
Dex 20, Str 14
Silly Background = Rapier Proficiency
Backstabber, Light Blade Expertise
Piercing Strike with Combat Advantage: +11 vs Reflex 13: 3d8+8.
Damage: 0 (0 x 0.05 = Miss Chance) + 19.35 (21.5 x 0.9 = Hit Chance) + 1.6 (32 x 0.05 = Crit Chance) = 20.95 damage.

Our result does indeed come out behind your Thief. Under, admittedly, ideal circumstances for the thief that make some pretty significant assumptions about battlefield conditions - including the thief never starting in melee combat with a foe. That seems relatively unlikely to me. Shall we look at your thief's numbers under, say, more reasonable conditions?

First, though, I do want to note that the Rogue's damage is, undeniably, still twice what an average non-Striker will do. That was your original claim, remember - that this didn't happen prior to Essentials, and was a new thing. And it isn't true. The bugbear above was my very first 4E character. It was silly optimized, yeah, and the rest of the party totally noticed that it did stupid amounts of damage. And, of course, took absurd amounts in return, and was constantly limping around with too few surges - much like your thief will given his strategy of provoking OAs every turn.

Now, what would a more legitimate comparison be? Let's take the charge assumption out of the equation - it is occasionally available to the Thief, but hardly something you can rely on.

Level 1 Human Thief
Dex(20) +5
Rogue's Trick: Acrobat's Trick, Tactical Trick
Feat: Backstabber
Feat: Light Blade Expertise

Basic Attack with Combat Advantage : +11 vs AC 15: 1d6+2d8+10.
Damage: 0 (0 x 0.15 = Miss Chance) + 19.125 (22.5 x 0.85 = Hit Chance) + 1.6 (32 x 0.05 = Crit Chance) = 20.725 damage.

So, ignoring the charging build, these guys are coming out basically the same. Acrobatic's Trick gives the Thief the slight edge in raw damage, while the Rogue has the edge in accuracy, coming out fractionally ahead in total DPR.

In the other arenas, I will certainly admit the Thief's tricks give an edge on being able to get CA with ranged attacks while immobilized. Does this mean that the Thief will always have CA when the rogue does not? Not at all, unfortunately - the main element I have found that deprives Rogues of CA is being Dazed, and that shuts down the Thief just as handily.

Theorycraft, of course, won't be able to show us the exact breakdown on how often Rogues are unable to get CA and how often the Thief will have it in their place. From my experience, the big advantage will be for ranged builds - and even then, well-built Rogues can get CA just about as reliably as Thieves. So perhaps the actual benefit will be for melee builds who get stuck at range, which just is not that common a scenario.

And, finally, if you trick out for a charging build... then, yes, the Thief can eke out an extra 3 points of damage in rounds in which he can safely charge with Acrobatic's Trick. Not that huge, and balanced against other harder to quantify benefits for the Rogue like the usefulness of Encounter and Daily Powers.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I actually was strictly against using 18-14... but now i believe, 18-14-11 is reasonable for a race that adds +2 to a secondary and +2 to a stat where you want to have a 13...

i however am even more fond of the 18/13/13 array or the 18/12/12/12 one if an 18 in your main stat is useful and you get a bonus to secondaries.

A halfling thief however should be well advised to use the 18/13/13 or 18/13/12/11 array and use the pre essential +2 to charisma to get superior will and increase dex and strength or constitution at every possible opportunity, leading to a very healthy, charismatic, dextrous and hard to take down thief... you can add damage feats later...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

[MENTION=61155]MrMyth[/MENTION]:
don´t forget that you have a second at will, maybe duellist´s strike to get sneak attack even in the worst circumstances and some encounter abilities, that will allow you to catch up even with the charge build... especially if you use the rapier as a weapon...

against a brute, riposte strike could also come in handy as a third at will...

 

[KarinsDad]

No one says his point of view is not perfectly legitimate. But he shoulf not take it as an offense if we deduct from his elaborations, that it seems unreasonable from his point of view to invest in this feat.

You have no idea how I design my own PCs. I give them a lot of versatility.

There is a major difference between designing a DPR champ here to illustrate that MrMyth's claim that I "toss out numbers without anything to back them up", and creating a PC for a game.

edit:
if he takes it as an offense, i will apologize.

Nope. I don't take offense. People claiming that I would or wouldn't take a feat for a PC based on a DPR sample PC is pretty silly though.

Just as it's silly that some of the people posting here are talking about me instead the subject (as per your quote here).

But it just unnerves me if you just calculate DPR to 2 or 3 decimals to prove that something is overpowered...

It may or may not be overpowered.

It is definitely minor power creep. Not just from a DPR POV, but from a game POV.

As S'mon said, his Thief can hang back at range and do similar amounts of damage as a melee Rogue without risking his PC. I saw this with the Thief in our game too. The Defender over tanked (i.e. got the highest AC possible and marked as much as possible) and the Thief hung back. How many years of opinion did we used to have concerning it being a bad option for a Defender to overtank? Now it's back in vogue again.

The Defender takes a higher percentage of the attacks (less chance to hit him and more healing per surge) and the party then uses Comrade's Succor to re-arrange healing surges.

That's a lot more effective than the original Rogue (and most current Rogues) who actually have to go into melee themselves.

There used to be a reason why the Rogue was often the DPR king in Heroic until higher levels (when the Ranger took over). He got the most damage, but he took the greatest risk as well. That risk has been heavily minimized for the Thief.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It may or may not be overpowered.

It is definitely minor power creep. Not just from a DPR POV, but from a game POV.

As S'mon said, his Thief can hang back at range and do similar amounts of damage as a melee Rogue without risking his PC. I saw this with the Thief in our game too. The Defender over tanked (i.e. got the highest AC possible and marked as much as possible) and the Thief hung back. How many years of opinion did we used to have concerning it being a bad option for a Defender to overtank? Now it's back in vogue again.

The Defender takes a higher percentage of the attacks (less chance to hit him and more healing per surge) and the party then uses Comrade's Succor to re-arrange healing surges.

That's a lot more effective than the original Rogue (and most current Rogues) who actually have to go into melee themselves.

There used to be a reason why the Rogue was often the DPR king in Heroic until higher levels (when the Ranger took over). He got the most damage, but he took the greatest risk as well. That risk has been heavily minimized for the Thief.

This is actually much more convincing that the thief may be too strong than any of your DPR calculations, because this brings DPR into context with actual gameplay.

But here we have:
- a defender doing its job
- a striker doing its job
- a leader doing its job
- and i bet we can find a controller that also does its job!

And since the nova potential is not there, i guess allowing the thief to be slightly ahead over the course of a day seems ok (as I usually don´t have 4 encounters a day)

 

[Plane Sailing]

No one says his point of view is not perfectly legitimate. But he shoulf not take it as an offense if we deduct from his elaborations, that it seems unreasonable from his point of view to invest in this feat.

edit:
if he takes it as an offense, i will apologize.

It is considered polite to not put words into someones mouth by means of 'deduction'.

Happily everyone is taking it well here, but it is the kind of thing that has led to problems in the past.

Thanks!