Pathfinder 1E The good man WotC and the scoundrel Paizo

[ggroy]

Someone can make a decision that seems perfectly sound based on the information available at the time the decision was made, and have that decision completely fail.

Case in point: the Maginot Line.

 

[Fifth Element]

Things like IP protection and such, I'm sure Hasbro is all over. But the details of the game are probably the last thing Hasbro wants to be bothered with.

I think you're right there. I can imagine them being involved in overall strategic planning to some extent, but certainly not day-to-day operations.

Except that a lot of people are still saying the same things they were saying in 2008.

Again, it's not about the timing of the criticism, it's the basis for it. If you said "moving away from the OGL is a bad idea" in 2008 based on your personal perceptions of things, that's just a conjecture. You certainly didn't know how much of a positive impact that the OGL had for WotC (seems very likely that it had some), and you didn't know (with any real certainty) that moving away from it would cause significant problems.

Now, in hindsight, you appear to have been prescient. But even if everyone just flipped a coin in 2008, 50% of us could now be taking credit for getting it right.

 

[BryonD]

Again, it's not about the timing of the criticism, it's the basis for it. If you said "moving away from the OGL is a bad idea" in 2008 based on your personal perceptions of things, that's just a conjecture. You certainly didn't know how much of a positive impact that the OGL had for WotC (seems very likely that it had some), and you didn't know (with any real certainty) that moving away from it would cause significant problems.

Huh? You called it "hindsight", the whole point of that is timing and NOT basis.

Now, in hindsight, you appear to have been prescient. But even if everyone just flipped a coin in 2008, 50% of us could now be taking credit for getting it right.

So you are just equating it to a 50/50 flip of a coin? Really?

Is that how you think all business is run?

I guess there is also an east and west. Lets flip a coin for where the sun will rise tomorrow.

 

[delericho]

Now, only at an hypothetical level, what if it was the opposite?

Then it would be the opposite. Problem is, it's really not.

And, you know, he's right. Many people here indeed think and refer to Paizo as a good-hearted company that wants to keep on sharing with the OGL, distributing and updating the 3.5e ruleset, give candy to everyone. The same people ofter refer to WotC as a candy-stealing, evil monster who wants to kill D&D and kick its corpse until it is barely recognisable; a company who failingly wanted to appeal to videogame players, who releases books, supplements, and new editions only for money grabbing purposes. I know that I'm overstating, but you know it to be true at the core.

You're not overstating things; you're massively overstating things.

Look, WotC are just a company. A normal company, peopled by (mostly) good people working as hard as they can to produce the best product they can. So too are Paizo.

The thing is, Paizo worked damn hard for all that goodwill they built up. Their customer service is extremely good. And they communicate with their fans regularly, directly, and clearly. And it's very obvious that they love the game, and that love shows clearly in the products they put out.

WotC seem to have other priorities. Frankly, they botched the 4e rollout. Their adventures have been extremely poor (this has always been the case; it's not new with 4e). They haven't communicated clearly or well (though this is definitely improving with "The Rule of Three" and "Letters to the Editor"), and it all does feel like dealing with a big, impersonal corporation.

(I should probably insert the obligatory "IMO" here.)

Now that's fine. I deal with big, impersonal corporations all the time. Hell, most of my work is for one of the biggest and most impersonal.

But I have no illusions: big, impersonal corporations have absolutely no loyalty to me. It doesn't make business sense. And so I reciprocate; I have absolutely no loyalty to big, impersonal corporations. And that includes Wizards of the Coast.

 

[Beginning of the End]

And, you know, he's right. Many people here indeed think and refer to Paizo as a good-hearted company that wants to keep on sharing with the OGL, distributing and updating the 3.5e ruleset, give candy to everyone. The same people ofter refer to WotC as a candy-stealing, evil monster who wants to kill D&D and kick its corpse until it is barely recognisable; a company who failingly wanted to appeal to videogame players, who releases books, supplements, and new editions only for money grabbing purposes. I know that I'm overstating, but you know it to be true at the core.

Now, only at an hypothetical level, what if it was the opposite?

If it was the opposite, Paizo wouldn't be enjoying their current success.

That's pretty much the bottom line here: Paizo is successful because they're offering products that people want at a price they're willing to pay.

Also: Several companies recognized that WotC was abandoning classic 1974-2008 D&D gameplay and tried to fill that void with variations on the "3.5 with minor improvements" theme. Paizo just supplied that demand for classic D&D better than anyone else did (including WotC).

But then I look at their output. Their "open playtest". Pick the results then claim you're holding an open playtest.

Tangentially, I'm not entirely clear where people got the idea that "open playtest" is defined as "our forums will be co-designers". That's not the way playtests work.

But Paizo continued to erode my good will by selling my address. After an emergency move, Paizo was the only company aside from my utilities that had my new address. I received a Bradford Exchange catalogue, and later a WotC ad for their high-budget chess set. The chess set flyer caused a stink and Paizo eventually communicated that yes, they had given our addresses to WotC- but only because WotC had the rights to subscriber information. It is extremely unlikely that Westar Energy sold my address to the Bradford Exchange. I have never expressed to Westar any interest in replica Harry Potter wands or pewter dragons with zircon eyes.

You're blaming Paizo because WotC exploited your subscriber info? Huh. Interesting.

Point of reference: The e-mail I use to register at Paizo's website gets Paizo updates (because I requested them). The e-mail I use to register at WotC is overwhelmed with spam. (These are e-mails used for those sites and nothing else.)

Personally, I've never considered WotC evil. Just incompetent. Their predilection for trying to do X by doing exactly the opposite of X mixed with what appears to be a large disregard for their customers is not a good combination.

 

[Gorbacz]

Wait, why don't we have Umbran or some other Exalted Community Star Hero Support Moderator waving his finger at edition warring and anti-company sniping?

Oh wait, it's a pro-WotC, anti-Paizo thread. That kind of explains the situation.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Wait, why don't we have Umbran or some other Exalted Community Star Hero Support Moderator waving his finger at edition warring and anti-company sniping?

Oh wait, it's a pro-WotC, anti-Paizo thread. That kind of explains the situation.

A public service anouncement: the (supposedly) dark, putrid nectar of pro-Wotc-bias cannot be cured with the sap from the Enworld-moderation-acitivity-criticism-tree. Disregarding this warning can lead to rashes, pimples and angry cats (who are also pirates).

 

[TheAuldGrump]

A public service anouncement: the (supposedly) dark, putrid nectar of pro-Wotc-bias cannot be cured with the sap from the Enworld-moderation-acitivity-criticism-tree. Disregarding this warning can lead to rashes, pimples and angry cats (who are also pirates).

Ah, but are the pirate(cats) also ninjas?

The Auld Grump

 

[Umbran]

Oh wait, it's a pro-WotC, anti-Paizo thread. That kind of explains the situation.

Those claiming pro-WotC bias need to check their facts - the only money I've given to WotC since I bought the three core books for 4e was for a DDI membership, and that only for a few months to download the character builder client and play with the VTT beta.

So, really, you can fold your preconception until it is all points, and stick it in your ear. I'm not particularly a WotC fan, or particularly a Paizo fan. I'm a fan of RPGs, and a fan of people not behaving like jerks.

Therefore, at this moment, I'm not a fan of yours. Clean up your approach, because we don't have any compelling reason to put up with this kind of nonsense.

I hope I make myself abundantly clear.

 

[BryonD]

Pro-Paizo and rarely ever agree with Umbran here.....

The bias isn't here and this thread isn't being treated any differently than any other.