Pathfinder 1E The good man WotC and the scoundrel Paizo

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A decision that results in a bad outcome is generally thought of as a bad decision, and in the case of the WotC moving away from the OGL it was thought by many at the time to be a "bad" decision. That you believe that no one at the time could call it a "bad" decision is ironic since, as I said, I wasn't alone.
That's not what I'm saying. I know there were plenty of people who said it was a bad idea at the time.

There can be decisions that are clearly good or bad, or right or wrong. But when you're dealing with designing games, or selecting one of many possible paths to pursue for a business, those types of decisions are exceedingly rare.

There were people within and without WotC trying to avoid switching from the OGL to the GSL, and once some within WotC made that "bad" decision, many of those same people who thought it was a "bad" decision did what they could to make the GSL as OGL-like as they could, despite others working against them. You should be able to name at least one of them as an "Original Member of the Rousekateers."
Um....Scott Rouse? Did I get it? (Seriously, the Rouseketeers was just silly fun.)

Doesn't the fact that there was disagreement within the company itself lend credence to the idea that it was not objectively a good or bad idea at the time? If it were clearly one or the other, one would think such disagreement would not have arisen.
 

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I'm curious. WotC has been a subsidiary of Hasbro since 1999. How independent is WotC? How much of their decision-making is a result of Hasbro leaning on them to cut costs, increase market share, and in general increase their margin?
No one (outside of the company) really knows. It's a frequent refrain on message boards that Ha$borg sends them orders from down on high without understanding what RPGs are all about, but ultimately we don't know.
 

That's not what I'm saying. I know there were plenty of people who said it was a bad idea at the time.


Then we agree on that point.


There can be decisions that are clearly good or bad, or right or wrong. But when you're dealing with designing games, or selecting one of many possible paths to pursue for a business, those types of decisions are exceedingly rare.


This seems a bit garbled but as near as I can understand what you are saying here, I think we still disagree in that I believe "designing games" and "selecting one of many possible paths to pursue for a business" are separate issues and best not to lump them together. (Which is all I meant above when asking that question with which you took exception.)


Um....Scott Rouse? Did I get it? (Seriously, the Rouseketeers was just silly fun.)

Doesn't the fact that there was disagreement within the company itself lend credence to the idea that it was not objectively a good or bad idea at the time? If it were clearly one or the other, one would think such disagreement would not have arisen.


I think the semantic argument over "good" and "bad" decision making only serves to cloud the point that the "bad" decisions have had rather significant consequences. Though one wonders if Scott Rouse would still be with WotC if he had more wholeheartedly embraced the "bad" decisions that have WotC where they are today. Maybe making "good" decisions, or fighting for them, has individual consequences that lead some to making "bad" decisions.
 


How do you know it wasn't WotC who sold your address once they had it from Paizo?

How do you know it wasn't a credit card company? If you had been paying for stuff from Paizo or WotC with a credit card, that company knows something about your buying habits and, if I remember correctly, can often sell off that information to marketers.
It wasn't a credit card company. For WotC to take our information and immediately resell it inside the month where the first incident happened is increasingly unlikely. We all entertained dozens of hypotheticals like these years ago. I suppose it's easy to believe that everyone who came forward made some sort of mistake or just invented a story. But I have no motive to lie about this and my circumstances were unique to know exactly who had my address and when during the very brief window when this happened.
 

(The title is taken from Philip Pullman's book, «The good man Jesus and the scoundrel Christ»)

So, I was reading another thread, and read a poster write:



And, you know, he's right. Many people here indeed think and refer to Paizo as a good-hearted company that wants to keep on sharing with the OGL, distributing and updating the 3.5e ruleset, give candy to everyone. The same people ofter refer to WotC as a candy-stealing, evil monster who wants to kill D&D and kick its corpse until it is barely recognisable; a company who failingly wanted to appeal to videogame players, who releases books, supplements, and new editions only for money grabbing purposes. I know that I'm overstating, but you know it to be true at the core.

Now, only at an hypothetical level, what if it was the opposite?

I mean, Paizo didn't really invent something. I think they don't even have the resources nor the experience to develop a full-featured game like D&D 3.5e all by themselves. All they did before PF (correct me if i'm wrong, because i had never heard of them before) was to publish supplements and adventures.

All Paizo did was take an existing system released with an open license, add some changes and update what was strictly necessary (grapple rules, some underperforming classes), then resell it with a new brand. Heck, they didn't even solve one of the biggest problems of 3.5e, the all-powerfulness of wizards at higher levels, i.e. the exponential growing of spellcasters compared to the linear growing of other classes. You can speculate that they hadn't got a clue on how the system worked in the inside, otherwise they could have gone further and fix the huge problems of balance.
You could also say that they did this only to keep publishing adventures and modules the same way they did before, so they didn't need to change system or to reinvent theirselves. Some could say that they exploited 4e's situation (bad reception) by reprinting 3.5e at little cost compared to its production value.

And now they are getting near (some say they even outdid) WotC in terms of selling revenue. Well, I would call this a huge money-grab. You do relatively nothing compared to the huge work required to develop a big RPG, and become a selling competitor to the market leader. If there weren't the OGL, this could have been brought in court and Paizo would have lost. In fact, even though the laws on IP don't cover rules, Paizo basically reprinted whole sections of the 3.5e Player's Handbook with minimal changes.

In fact, the OGL, which was initially seen as a godsend by the RPG community, was a huge :):):):)-up for WotC. It permitted all sorts of alternative RPGs based on its excellent (at the time) ruleset, that one by one stole some market share to D&D. Paizo exploited this weakness without shame.

On the other hand, WotC worked their asses off to make 4th Edition, and they didn't do as well as they expected. The most insulting thing is that some people have been referring to them as the money grabbers, and then switched to Pathfinder declaring their love for Paizo. Now, you can say many bad things about the marketing, PR and administration teams at WotC, but that doesn't mean that the developers worked really hard on the system and made the changes that they thought to be best for the game. And now they lost half their userbase.

In my opinion, WotC is just a normal company faced with the economic crisis and the difficulties of standing up in a market like this. Paizo, insted, are the real money grabbers, exploiting others' excellent work.

Now, to conclude, a little disclaimer: I didn't want to talk about the products, which were both produced by WotC (I refuse to consider Pathfinder a Paizo product, even if it legally is) and are both excellent products. I wanted to talk about the companies. All of this is mainly to make you think about the issue, I didn't want to state any facts, even if I did.

Discuss.

Desperate Words from a Desperate player trying to hold on to a Dying company(WOTC) and a Dying game system.

Why don't you take your ball and go home. Us Pathfinder players found a new ball anyways.

Its just too bad WOTC had to go and ruin all those cool campaign worlds.
 

But I'd say it's probably too late for it to have an effect. There is a well-entrenched feeling that WotC is an evil corporation
For what it's worth, I don't think WotC is evil or bad or stinky or poo-poo heads.

But I do think that the decisions that are being made are either "indifferent" or "incompetent" (which comes to the same thing from different directions). I have no idea how much influence Hasbro chooses to exert, so I don't even know if WotC is making the indifferent or incompetent decisions.

But someone is, and WotC is paying for it.

Now, I do think Paizo has a better "personality" than WotC, and for that reason I find Paizo more "likable." But there are plenty of decent people and things that I dislike without thinking they're evil.
 
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This seems a bit garbled but as near as I can understand what you are saying here, I think we still disagree in that I believe "designing games" and "selecting one of many possible paths to pursue for a business" are separate issues and best not to lump them together.
Separate issues, obviously. I'm only lumping them together in the sense that outsiders tend to judge both of them based on subjective standards.
 

But I do think that the decisions that are being made are either "indifferent" or "incompetent" (which comes to the same thing from different directions). I have no idea how much influence Hasbro chooses to exert, so I don't even know if WotC is making the indifferent or incompetent decisions.
I would think indifference would lead to a lack of decisions, and decisions are certainly being made.

Ultimately it's easy to paint faceless people as incompetent. Lots of certainty with little to base it on.
 

I don't know. I've never thought they were evil. And I don't think many people actually do (with some vocal exceptions), though some try to paint most non-4e players with that broad brush. They just aren't making anything I want to buy, and I think their RPG department is floundering.
Evil, evil, evil! Impolite and evil!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPLWbTh9_Nk]YouTube - In the pit of Ultimate Darkness[/ame]

The Auld Grump, this always comes to mind when 'evil' is casually bandied about.... :p
 

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