Searing Light

[Rakusia]

yeah but it'd be kinda like )( ring gates an enter and exit okay


light ---) (---) (---) (---) (--- earth

 

[Greenfield]

So Jaffa staff weapons are purely visible light?

Which of course explains why the bolts travel slowly enough for people to dodge them, eh? Because visible light causes explosions when it hits things?

And all of which is applicable to a completely different set of items that operate on a completely different set of principles in a completely different world in a completely different genre.

Ring Gates are pretty clearly documented: *OBJECTS* pass from one to the other. Doesn't say a thing about spells, or about being able to see from one through the other.

 

[Dandu]

[sblock]Actually, as far as Stargate goes, electomagnetic radiation can go through a Stargate. It's how the radios work.

I'm glad you got the joke and we had a laugh at the sci-fi/pop culture reference.[/sblock]

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

1) Create terrarium on the moon with carefully shaped crystal dome

2) Protect dome with necessary anti-impact spells

3) Populate terrarium with Dire Legendary Blindheims

4) Train them to ask for food by focusing their gaze at a particular spot next to a food dispenser opening on the dome at a particular time- said spot being a lens.

 

[Rakusia]

These always come in pairs—two iron rings, each about 18 inches in diameter. The rings must be on the same plane of existence and within 100 miles of each other to function. Whatever is put through one ring comes out the other, and up to 100 pounds of material can be transferred each day. (Objects only partially pushed through and then retracted do not count.) This useful device allows for instantaneous transport of items or messages, and even attacks. A character can reach through to grab things near the other ring, or even stab a weapon through if so desired. Alternatively, a character could stick his head through to look around. A spellcaster could even cast a spell through a ring gate. A Small character can make a DC 13 Escape Artist check to slip through. Creatures of Tiny, Diminutive, or Fine size can pass through easily. Each ring has a “entry side” and an “exit side,” both marked with appropriate symbols

 

[Greenfield]

All it would take would be the knowledge of aluminum's existence to prod some wizard with a smithing fetish to devise a spell to get the job done. I personally don't think that is any form of a stretch.

So, all he needs is knowledge of a metal that doesn't exist, and the metal will exist?

Or does he also need an understanding of a smelting process that doesn't exist, driven by a continuous supply of electricity that doesn't exist, to create the metal that doesn't exist?

So I guess that means no aluminum in your game world, eh?

I was just suggesting a way to bind them together, just because the way I suggested won't work doesn't mean that binding them together wont work. ^^

That's hilarious.

That doesn't change the fact that there is still x amount of light energy all going to the same place, the majority of such being converted into heat energy when coming into contact with the earths surface or anything that absorbs light. Thus, a massive scale disintegrate is born.

Except that it means that there is still x amount of light energy all going to a lot of different places. Like I said, the lens won't unify multiple light sources into one. It's just a crossing point. The only thing that this rig might do a "massive scale disintegrate" on is the lens itself, since that's the only place all the light is going to hit.

Isn't it a pretty huge assumption to say someone must SEE something in order to aim at it. Knowing somethings location, in degrees, fractions of degrees, or something else, in relation to several visible landmarks would make "seeing" your target completely irrelevant to aiming at it, from an orbital perspective. You think astronauts can "see" where they are going when they come in for a landing? It is all just calculations and fore-knowledge as to the location of things.

So you check the GPS coordinates?

So you're arguing for a 50/50 miss chance? Even Blindfighting won't help if you don't know which square to attack into.

Astronauts "see" via RADAR, spotter planes, land based observers on the radio, and yes, with their eyes.

The only one of these that exist in the D&D world is the eyes.

A general idea of knowing where things are? Half of the American Civil War was a bloody comedy of errors because of inaccurate maps. West Point was originally a cartography school (map making) and students had been mapping and remapping the entire region the war was fought on for generations, and with generations of surveys and mapmakers' notes, they still couldn't get any two maps to agree. One general fought most of the war using a map from the fly leaf of a book, since it seemed more accurate than any of the others.

And with GPS, orbital photos and aerial surveilance, modern artillery still uses forward spotters. The much vaunted pinpoint accuracy of the Tomahawk missiles used in Iraq was achieved through the efforts of men on the ground "painting" the target with a laser. The guidance system on those missiles in fact use a visual recognition system within the missiles themselves.

Energy and Mass are the same thing, simply in different form. To say something like a Ring Gate would not function in a similar manner to a blackhole (effects everything, even gravity and time), is illogical. If it transports anything, it transports everything, unless specifically stated otherwise. In my opinion, saying it transports "objects" and nothing else should not be assumed to mean one can't see through it. I however don't know the spell, so am just making arguments of logic. XD I think the limit of 100 miles does a good job of keeping people from using it to suck away earths atmosphere, or cover earths surface in magma.

First, it's not a spell, it's a magic item.

Second, it specifically says that it transports objects. It also says that if you want to see through it you have to actually stick your head through.

Third, "Energy" in D&D doesn't conform to real world logic, so attempts to apply your gut-level version of real world logic to the setting are a non-starter.

What form of real world "energy" radiates cold? Cold is an active energy type in D&D, not just a lack of heat.

Darkness exists in D&D in a manner that goes beyond a mere absence of light. It's an active force.

Lightning doesn't follow any normal rules for an electrical discharge, in the D&D world. It goes in whichever direction the caster points their finger, instead of arcing to the nearest grounded object (which would be the spell caster 99 times out of a hundred).

Fireballs expand to a set radius, doing full damage all the way to the edge.

Energy dispersal in general doesn't follow the inverse distance square rule in D&D. It goes X distance then cuts off, hard and sharp. No degradation of effect over that distance, no leak through beyond that distance.

If you need to know how I feel about gut level logic/physics, go look up my posts on the hamster cannon. You'll probably get a kick out of them.

BTW: Was there a reference in there to Black Holes transporting things? As far as I know, all they do is crush them.

 

[TanisFrey]

What if Mithral is just what aluminum is called in that game world?

 

[Pergentile]

So, all he needs is knowledge of a metal that doesn't exist, and the metal will exist?

You are assuming I am referring to the metal and not the element, or alloy with aluminum as a component. Are you debating just for the sake of debating?

Or does he also need an understanding of a smelting process that doesn't exist, driven by a continuous supply of electricity that doesn't exist, to create the metal that doesn't exist?

I'm sure you and I both could think of dozens of spells that can do something they shouldn't. I am also sure we can both think of spells that would do this, even though they shouldn't. Are you debating just for the sake of debating?

That's hilarious.

How so? I don't see how what you said was a rebuttal of the idea of connecting the mirrors.

Except that it means that there is still x amount of light energy all going to a lot of different places. Like I said, the lens won't unify multiple light sources into one. It's just a crossing point. The only thing that this rig might do a "massive scale disintegrate" on is the lens itself, since that's the only place all the light is going to hit.

The lens doesn't need to unify them. It needs to focus them to a single point. I think something is being assumed or misinterpreted. Flat Mirror/s to redirect light to convex lens, and convex lens to focus light to a single point (about 1 milex1 mile) at the distance away that the lens is from the earth (We have already gotten past being able to hold the lens a certain distance from the earth). Are you debating just for the sake of debating?

So you check the GPS coordinates?
So you're arguing for a 50/50 miss chance? Even Blindfighting won't help if you don't know which square to attack into.
Astronauts "see" via RADAR, spotter planes, land based observers on the radio, and yes, with their eyes.

The only one of these that exist in the D&D world is the eyes.[/quote]
Are you saying basic latitude and longitude cannot exist in D&D? They seem like fairly simple concepts to me. Are you debating simply for the sake of debating?

A general idea of knowing where things are? Half of the American Civil War was a bloody comedy of errors because of inaccurate maps. West Point was originally a cartography school (map making) and students had been mapping and remapping the entire region the war was fought on for generations, and with generations of surveys and mapmakers' notes, they still couldn't get any two maps to agree. One general fought most of the war using a map from the fly leaf of a book, since it seemed more accurate than any of the others.

The American's during their civil war could not see things from any distance up one could possibly want, or use a Spell to have some Outsider simple craft a perfect map using empirical knowledge. You MUST be debating just for its own sake, because your points are starting to lose the clarity, concision and relevence of your earlier posts...

And with GPS, orbital photos and aerial surveilance, modern artillery still uses forward spotters. The much vaunted pinpoint accuracy of the Tomahawk missiles used in Iraq was achieved through the efforts of men on the ground "painting" the target with a laser. The guidance system on those missiles in fact use a visual recognition system within the missiles themselves.

Modern things also cannot control variables like in D&D, where you can remove factors like inertia and gravity, and make other factors like wind, temperature, etc. inconsequential.

attempts to apply your gut-level version of real world logic to the setting are a non-starter.

English isn't my first language, and I don't quite understand this sentence. Could you clarify? It seems like you might be trying to insult me or my way of thinking? At least one of the moderators on these forums reads things as "Dismissive and rude" even if they arguably aren't or aren't intended to be, so I suggest being careful.

It specifically says that it transports objects. It also says that if you want to see through it you have to actually stick your head through.
What form of real world "energy" radiates cold? Cold is an active energy type in D&D, not just a lack of heat.
Darkness exists in D&D in a manner that goes beyond a mere absence of light. It's an active force.
Lightning doesn't follow any normal rules for an electrical discharge, in the D&D world. It goes in whichever direction the caster points their finger, instead of arcing to the nearest grounded object (which would be the spell caster 99 times out of a hundred).
Fireballs expand to a set radius, doing full damage all the way to the edge.
Energy dispersal in general doesn't follow the inverse distance square rule in D&D. It goes X distance then cuts off, hard and sharp. No degradation of effect over that distance, no leak through beyond that distance.[/quote]
All very good points. ^^ You have made a convincing argument that the reality of D&D is very illogical.

BTW: Was there a reference in there to Black Holes transporting things? As far as I know, all they do is crush them.

I was trying to reference the fact that they effect absolutely everything. Sorry for my poor wording. Also a black hole does not crush anything. A black hole is infinite mass in an infinitely small space, and it warps reality. It is not quite known what happens to things pulled in by a black hole but one theory I know of is that nothing ever actually makes to to the center of a black hole, since as you get closer to it, time slows, infinitely and since black holes also warp space, to say that the things it effects are compressed into a smaller space is... a stretch as far as theories go. Turn this thread into a discussion on black holes ftw!

 

[Dandu]

I was trying to reference the fact that they effect absolutely everything.

That word you keep using. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[Greenfield]

You are assuming I am referring to the metal and not the element, or alloy with aluminum as a component. Are you debating just for the sake of debating?

You spoke of smelting. That's specific to the metal, not the raw element in a compound.

I'm sure you and I both could think of dozens of spells that can do something they shouldn't. I am also sure we can both think of spells that would do this, even though they shouldn't. Are you debating just for the sake of debating?

Dozens of spells that would give a continuous electrical current? Sorry, but no. Pretty much everything that does lightning damage has an effective duration of "instantaneous".

So, since you can think of dozens, why not start with one. Name one single unmodified, non-custom spell that will provide a continuous electrical current for the hours needed to separate bauxite into aluminum and oxygen.

The lens doesn't need to unify them. It needs to focus them to a single point.

Which it won't do. Try it. Go into a room with several light sources and try to focus them all into a single point of light using a lens. You'll get an inverse image of the room, complete with images of several distinct light sources.

Are you saying basic latitude and longitude cannot exist in D&D? They seem like fairly simple concepts to me. Are you debating simply for the sake of debating?

Latitude is easy. Every sailor can figure that by sighting the stars. Longitude, on the other hand, requires precise time measurements, accurate to the second, as measured against some base point. In the real world, that's a rather famous city in England. Timepieces accurate enough to measure this weren't available using medieval technology, and the need in fact inspired a hefty reward from the King of England for the clockmaker who could fashion such a piece. It took decades.

In any case, none of those calculations would work from an orbital platform, since they all depend on sighting the sun or the north star in its angle above the horizon. Your horizon is more than a little distorted.

The American's during their civil war could not see things from any distance up one could possibly want, or use a Spell to have some Outsider simple craft a perfect map using empirical knowledge.

The forces during the American Civil War had observation balloons available, and spyglasses were definitely around. Moreover, the map makers had had the opportunity to take all the time they needed, to walk the fields and roads, and to use surveyer's equipment to their heart's content. And they still got it wrong, over and over.

Modern things also cannot control variables like in D&D, where you can remove factors like inertia and gravity, and make other factors like wind, temperature, etc. inconsequential.

What do any of those have to do with seeing a castle from orbit?

I mean, I could ask how you'd negate inertia or temperature, but since none of them are in any way relevant to the point at hand, it would be, as you put it, debating for the sake of debating.

English isn't my first language, and I don't quite understand this sentence. Could you clarify? It seems like you might be trying to insult me or my way of thinking? At least one of the moderators on these forums reads things as "Dismissive and rude" even if they arguably aren't or aren't intended to be, so I suggest being careful.

Sorry if I came across rude or unclear. I'll try to clarify, politely.

My point was that our gut level interpretations of logic and physics are often just plain wrong. I could give examples, like the "hamster cannon", but I think you already know what I'm talking about. Trying to apply these very questionable tools to a setting where both logic and physics are distorted by game rules that defy both is a bad idea. A "non starter", meaning something that doesn't even survive a cursory examination.

All very good points. ^^ You have made a convincing argument that the reality of D&D is very illogical.

You seem to use "logic" and "physics" interchangeably. Not a criticism, just an observation.

I was trying to reference the fact that they effect absolutely everything. Sorry for my poor wording.

Okay, I guess I missed your point.

Also a black hole does not crush anything. A black hole is infinite mass in an infinitely small space, and it warps reality. It is not quite known what happens to things pulled in by a black hole but one theory I know of is that nothing ever actually makes to to the center of a black hole, since as you get closer to it, time slows, infinitely and since black holes also warp space, to say that the things it effects are compressed into a smaller space is... a stretch as far as theories go. Turn this thread into a discussion on black holes ftw!

The Lorenz-Fitzgerald Contraction says that time distorts relative to the outside viewer, but that's based on acceleration and velocity, not spacial or gravitational distortion. As seen by the outside observer, the object falls into the hole and is gone in seconds or minutes (or days or months, depending on the distance it has to fall), but the falling time is definitely finite, as is the mass of the black hole. From the point of view of the object falling, time will be drawn out so that it seems to take a lot more time to hit the bottom. As speed of the falling object approaches C, the time will approach infinite. But since the object will never reach C (it really can't), the time distortion will never reach infinite, so even from that perspective, it will eventually get added to the mass of the singularity.

As for crushing: I guess it depends on how you view it. Since it really does hit the bottom (and yes, there really is one), it does eventually get crushed flat. When that "eventually" is depends on where you're standing. Along the way though, gravitational stress will become so severe that even an object the size of a man will feel considerable tidal stress, as the amount of pull on your lower extremes ("feet" for arguments sake) will be a lot more than on your head. The old inverse distance squared rule gets nasty when the forces are intense, and the distances short.

The net effect is that you'll get torn apart by tidal stresses before you get smashed flat. But you will get smashed flat (for varying values of "flat".)

All of which has nothing to do with the point at hand, and falls into that "debating for the sake of debating" category you were asking about. But since it was in direct response to your own tangent, I don't think it deserves a complaint.

As for the "debating for the sake of debating" question: This whole thread has been about a "thought experiment", and yes, I've taken the role of spoiler. So yes, I've been debating more or less for the fun of it, as has pretty much everyone else involved.

I don't think I've been unfair about it, and I've tried to keep it light hearted. The point about not being able to actually Spot the moon or sun from earth, and vice-versa, it was just a way to point out how silly the rules can be, when taken to the extreme.