Rule of 3 3/21

[webrunner]

I think the difference here is this:

he's saying "support" is when they directly add something for a class or feature from the PHB. (for example, new Warlord powers, new Staff of Defense powers, etc)

"Backwards compatable" is when they add something for an essentials class, that still works with a PHB class due to the fact that the two features are by definition compatible (such as adding a new Wizard Encounter 1 without a school of magic rider)

 

[WalterKovacs]

I think the difference here is this:

he's saying "support" is when they directly add something for a class or feature from the PHB. (for example, new Warlord powers, new Staff of Defense powers, etc)

"Backwards compatable" is when they add something for an essentials class, that still works with a PHB class due to the fact that the two features are by definition compatible (such as adding a new Wizard Encounter 1 without a school of magic rider)

Of course, it's a bit of an arbitrary distinction. The powers that are for the necromancer are reverse compatible for other schools of mage as much as they are for wizards. The utility powers for the knight are usable by the slayer (ditto the blackguard and the cavalier, the hexblade and the binder, etc) So reverse compatibility was there since the beginning.

 

[gyor]

Of course, it's a bit of an arbitrary distinction. The powers that are for the necromancer are reverse compatible for other schools of mage as much as they are for wizards. The utility powers for the knight are usable by the slayer (ditto the blackguard and the cavalier, the hexblade and the binder, etc) So reverse compatibility was there since the beginning.

I wonder how they will deal with the fluff of cavaliers stealing blackguards shadow powers
will they count as greyguard even without the pp?

 

[Walking Dad]

Of course, it's a bit of an arbitrary distinction. The powers that are for the necromancer are reverse compatible for other schools of mage as much as they are for wizards. The utility powers for the knight are usable by the slayer (ditto the blackguard and the cavalier, the hexblade and the binder, etc) So reverse compatibility was there since the beginning.

No, it is not. You just didn't understood the post.
Yes, HotFL and HotFK material was reverse compatible with the PHB line. But it was not written for it, it could be used independent. IMHO, HoS is not as independent but was primarily written to be used with HotFL and HotFK, not with the PHB line.
When something isn't designed to work primarily with something, I call it only compatible with it, but not a direct supplement.

Before Essentials primary core books for players: PHB 1+

After Essentials primary core books for players: HotFL and HotFK

The book all new material primary refers has changed. Just an observation, no complaining.

 

[WalterKovacs]

No, it is not. You just didn't understood the post.
Yes, HotFL and HotFK material was reverse compatible with the PHB line. But it was not written for it, it could be used independent. IMHO, HoS is not as independent but was primarily written to be used with HotFL and HotFK, not with the PHB line.
When something isn't designed to work primarily with something, I call it only compatible with it, but not a direct supplement.

Before Essentials primary core books for players: PHB 1+

After Essentials primary core books for players: HotFL and HotFK

The book all new material primary refers has changed. Just an observation, no complaining.

I understand the point.

I was merely pointing out there are a number of powers designed for a specific build, but are usable by others. That has always been the case. The only difference is that you are making an assumption about the design/development. The distinction is that you think/believe that in this case, unlike the other cases, they designed the stuff without consideration for PHB, while in all other cases, all powers, even those that were designed to support the newer builds, were designed with consideration for the PHB builds.

It basically seems that your definition of reverse compatible vs. support is that the things that are "just" reverse compatible are the things you've defined as reverse compatible, as the only measure to define it is that it feels like it's just reverse compatible instead of support.

 

[webrunner]

The question is, does HoS have powers/feats/etc that can't or shouldn't be taken by an essentials version of a class?

 

[MrMyth]

When something isn't designed to work primarily with something, I call it only compatible with it, but not a direct supplement.

Before Essentials primary core books for players: PHB 1+

After Essentials primary core books for players: HotFL and HotFK

The book all new material primary refers has changed. Just an observation, no complaining.

What I don't get is why there is "PHB1+" in one category, and "HotFL/FK" in another. Primal Power was a supplementary book for the PHB2, not the PHB1. Psionic Power was a supplementary book for the PHB3, not the PHB1 or PHB2. Each of those books provided support for the most recent player's book, but not for the material that came before it.

We have HoS, now, providing significantly more support for prior material than either of those supplement books did.

Why are those books able to get away with providing no support for prior material at all? Was that a change as well?

Or is it simply that every book comes out with content for whatever the most appropriate sources would be. In this case, that includes both Essentials content and non-Essentials content.

There certainly is no indication that the powers in Heroes of Shadow "aren't designed to work primarily" with the PHB classes that they are for. Just because the book doesn't have new class features for Wizards (as far as we know) doesn't mean that providing powers alone somehow indicates that the content isn't appropriate for them.

 

[Walking Dad]

...

It basically seems that your definition of reverse compatible vs. support is that the things that are "just" reverse compatible are the things you've defined as reverse compatible, as the only measure to define it is that it feels like it's just reverse compatible instead of support.

The post below quasi answers it:

The question is, does HoS have powers/feats/etc that can't or shouldn't be taken by an essentials version of a class?

Or said differently:
IF HoS has material exclusively usable with HotFL/HotFK, but no material exclusively usable with the PHB line, HoS supports the former and is just compatible with the later.
Maybe not the right definition of these terms, but what I wanted to say.

What I don't get is why there is "PHB1+" in one category, and "HotFL/FK" in another. ...

See the cutted paragraph of the post you just quoted:

...
Yes, HotFL and HotFK material was reverse compatible with the PHB line. But it was not written for it, it could be used independent. IMHO, HoS is not as independent but was primarily written to be used with HotFL and HotFK, not with the PHB line.
...

Short: Because both products (PHB+ and HotFL/FK) contain the player basic rules.

Primal Power was a supplementary book for the PHB2, not the PHB1. Psionic Power was a supplementary book for the PHB3, not the PHB1 or PHB2. Each of those books provided support for the most recent player's book, but not for the material that came before it.

You left out the most recent (last?!) Power x book: Martial Power 2. It provided material for the PHB1.

We have HoS, now, providing significantly more support for prior material than either of those supplement books did.

I don't see it this way. See further above of this post.

Why are those books able to get away with providing no support for prior material at all? Was that a change as well?

See their title: They were power source specific
A Primal Power 2 would have contained material 'for' the PHB 2 & 3 (seeker).

Or is it simply that every book comes out with content for whatever the most appropriate sources would be. In this case, that includes both Essentials content and non-Essentials content.

No, it is sadly not that simple, I think.

There certainly is no indication that the powers in Heroes of Shadow "aren't designed to work primarily" with the PHB classes that they are for. Just because the book doesn't have new class features for Wizards (as far as we know) doesn't mean that providing powers alone somehow indicates that the content isn't appropriate for them.

IF HoS has material exclusively usable with HotFL/HotFK, but no material exclusively usable with the PHB line, HoS supports the former and is just compatible with the later.

I know it is maybe a big IF, but let's wait for the book to see if I'm right.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Essentials does have people worries about 'support' for pre-E stuff. It might make more sense to look at those worries by source, though.

If you look at HotFL, the material given for the Divine(Cleric) and Arcane(Wizard) builds is mostly useable by existing Clerics and Wizards. Like many builds, they have a few unique class features swapped around, and beyond that, their a little wierd in how they gain them. But, all the attack and utility powers of the Warpriest and Mage 'pass through' to the Cleric and Wizard. The same is not true of the Martial (Fighter and Rogue) builds in the books. Only the new utility powers - a relatively minor component of any class - 'pass through.' HotFK is similar, the martial builds recieve minimal pass-through support, the other sources a bit more (though not so much as the Wizard gets from the Mage).

In order to 'see support,' for the non-martial classes, all that needs to happen is a new build for the class needs to come out, and it's powers, at least, pass-through to the parent class, which is 'suppported.' For martial classes, though, new material will either be Essentials-style or 4e, and would support only the corresponding builds. HoS, so far, gives more pass-through support only to the Wizard, Cleric, and Warlock. The one hybrid-martial build is virtually stand-alone, possibly passing some tidbits to its parent class, the DDI-only Assassin. And there's one - one - Shadow class.

Now, in the past, if a _______ Power book came out, it would mostly do stuff for it's source. There wouldn't be a lot of goodies for Wizards in Martial Power or Rangers in Arcane Power. But, in HoS, there's only limitted goodies for the one pre-existing Shadow Class, a 2nd new Shadow Class, and support for Divine and Arcane classes (classic casters).

That's odd. It's also consistent with part of the 'new direction' being a return to the disparity between casters and non-casters that plagued prior editions of the game.

 

[WalterKovacs]

While it's true that martial classes can't get much support via builds like thief and slayer, it's also true that marital classes were the ones with the most support pre-essentials. They were all there from day 1, and they are the only power source to have received a second book. The Thief, Slayer, Knight builds are also ones that don't necessarily require much support (just new build options, not really new powers other than utility). The builds for the the other classes are more than just weapon selection giving specific riders.

If anything, it's closing in on the lead that the martial classes had. Instead of Arcane Power 2 or Divine Power 2, there is the Heroes books and Heroes of Shadow.

Also, comparing to other X Power books, there were already classes with that power source introduced before. It's more like PHB2 or 3 where a new power source was intro'd, but it also had some older power sources in the book as well.