How to stop a Warden?

Not trying to vs. the party. Trying to have an adventure that doesn't involve, you know, walking and skipping to level 30. I am looking for DM tips on how to build an encounter that may help me learn how to make the party sweat.

This is a group that has been playing D&D for years. More than twice the time I have been playing.
It's not really about building a tough encounter. You're the DM; if you felt like it, you could throw anything you wanted at them, and it'd be a challenge whether your tactics were good or bad.

The key to challenging the party as a whole with a fair encounter of L+0 to L+2 is your tactics, not theirs. Ignore the defender-played-as-striker; go for his healers. When the warlord goes down, watch him sweat.

Also, contrary to UngeuerLich, I think there is a big difference between newer and older monsters even at Level 5; the average damage isn't too big a difference (maybe 3 points per hit), but brutes will hit more often and limited-use abilities will hit harder. Also, they're just generally better-designed...

-O
 

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Contrary to Obryn, I believe you can find some monsters in MM1 or 2 that are top at damage dealing at low level. The better design shows mainly in consistency.
 

I really like this idea though. You could take two or three of these guys, and pair them with a bunch of minions that can position PCs closer to the Iron Maiden.

What do you think?

Pretty nice, but there are a couple of things I would point out:

1. The iron maiden reads more like a skirmisher with all that shifting through enemies stuff. I don't really see a flavor reason why it can do that; you might consider removing it.

2. If its "pull you 2 squares" chain attack always works, there isn't much need for an attack vs. Reflex.
 

Our Defender doesn't care about the other players. It doesn't stress him at all when other people in the party are dying.

Also, I said I didn't want to kill him.

This is the problem. A defender is designed to take the heat for everyone else, focusing foes on him. Not take every hit by a long shot, but be more focus than anyone else.

If he can't keep the majority of foes pounding on him, then you've actually got a rather poor warden. He'll survive - he's designed to take more heat than he's getting if he's letting others drop. But he's not fulfilling his role.

So, drop other folks. He doesn't put out enough damage if the strikers are down, and sure as pie afterwards the other PCs and/or the players (depending if it's an IC or OOC discussion) will talk about him actually doing his role.

BTW, drop =/= kill. Characters are pretty tough, even after they drop.
 

Hit him in the reflex and will with powers that move and imobilze, then ping away at him and bull rush him with minions. The ranged guys in the party might enjoy the artillery fight while the Wsrden get sslid closer and closer to some precipice or danger.
 

Pretty nice, but there are a couple of things I would point out:

1. The iron maiden reads more like a skirmisher with all that shifting through enemies stuff. I don't really see a flavor reason why it can do that; you might consider removing it.

The original frog was a controller, so I just stuck with that. No other reason really. The original giant frog couldnt' do anything while swallowing someone, so I think the idea is to get him out of combat as fast as possible, so it wouldn't get hit. Maybe shifting doesn't really fit an Iron Maiden.

2. If its "pull you 2 squares" chain attack always works, there isn't much need for an attack vs. Reflex.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. It works, but only on a hit. I wouldn't qualify that as "always working." Attacking reflex made the most sense, to me, as it allowed people to "dodge" out of the way of the chains. Are you saying the chain attack would/should be auto-hit?

The main purpose of this creature would be to confine the defender while other monsters wail on the party. I'd be happy to see a refined version from you :-)
 

Giant Frogs.

No, I'm not kidding. Giant Frogs are built specifically to swallow. When swallowed, the PC is stunned (so no actions), takes some ongoing damage, and cannot be targeted by any effects. (Save ends all).

To be honest, if you're going to be abusive, at least tell him to be abusive in a classy way.

A Jackalwere Deceiver (level 4 controller) and two Bravos (level 3 brutes) are all he needs. The Deceiver puts the warden unconscious, then the Bravo simply Coup de graces him. They auto-crit for 20+2d4 damage, so once you're done with the Warden you can progressively one shot off the rest of the party (as they will probably do enough damage each CdG on a non-primal character to easily hit their bloodied value).

But this is pretty pointless and the solution to PCs having strong options is not to simply ramp up abusing monsters.

My solution is to use creatures with auras - that deal automatic damage or effects. Get creative and use monsters that force the Warden to have to change tactics - like storm shards. The initial 1d6+4 or whatever blow won't phase him. When he has to move 4 squares from whatever he's trying to defend or suffer an automatic 3d6+6 damage - he'll sit up and take notice. Combine with enemies that slow or immobilize to make his life really interesting - and make all those HP count.

You could use fast moving skirmishers as well - deathjump spiders (they even suit your castle!). They can jump 10 squares without provoking AoOs, so they can get right into the pigeons (the other PCs) easily. The Warden can't do very much to them - so they can avoid him easily and take the battle where they want.

Traps and other things that the Warden cannot mark are a great idea as well. You need different tactics and skills to deal with a good solid trap or hazard - especially if these traps don't target the monsters whatsoever.

But try to avoid just abusing the more weirdly designed monsters in 4E like Giant Frogs and Jackalweres.

Contrary to Obryn, I believe you can find some monsters in MM1 or 2 that are top at damage dealing at low level. The better design shows mainly in consistency.

This is correct. Some of the best damage dealing creatures at low levels don't always come from MM3. They come from MM2 and some from MM1 - noting that the MM1 creatures are more just terrible combination's of features. For example Needlefang Drake swarms.

Examples of hard hitting low level monsters from MM2 are easy to find: Storm Shards for example I mentioned above are level 4 artillery. They have a damaging aura and combined with immobilizing friends they are incredible for damage - yet distinctly not abusive. Their ranged power lets them hit an enemy, then force it to move - often having to provoke OAs in a desperate situation - or suffer an automatic 3d6+6 damage. Any MM3 creature would be proud of that!

MM2 creatures - at least the heroic ones - are very competitive with MM3 and beyond creatures. It's only when their damage doesn't increase substantially through paragon/epic that MM2 creatures suffer a lot. At the same time, if you took a MM2 creature and boosted the damage - you'd have a far more competitive monster than a paragon/epic MM1 creature you did the same thing too. MM2 creatures have much better power design and so when you put the damage on top of them, they feel the most like creatures that could have been in more recent monster books. Coincidentally, due to the better power design combined with the fact heroic monster damage hasn't changed *that* much - MM2 heroic creatures stand alongside their later brethren with ease.
 
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He doesn't understand that he needs the party, but you can't call him out on it without ruining everyone else's day.

That's a good point. Miio, maybe you could illustrate this point by designing an encounter where the enemy doesn't kill but captures the party. Hopefully the Warden would see that he needs to be a better defender or else without the support of his party, he'll go down too. And since the encounter would not have a deadly endpoint, you won't be ruining the other players' fun by defeating them.
 

That's a good point. Miio, maybe you could illustrate this point by designing an encounter where ...
Maybe you could illustrate this point by TALKING TO THE PLAYER.

It's not the warden's job to gaurd the group just because his class has the defender role. If he wants to play an unkillable, low damage striker, that's his perogative. If he role-plays as an empathetic bleeding heart liberal but fights like a stone cold killer. that's not inconsistency, it's character.

The group needs a defender. Find out if your Warden wants to be the defender. If he doesn't, give the job to someone else. If no one wants the job, AND if having no defender is giving the group trouble, then provide them with an NPC defender or let someone in the group control a second character to fill the role.
 

"You must spread some experience points around before giving them to eriktheguy again."

Yes, very much so; the best way to deal with ooc problems in a game is to deal with them, as adults, ooc. If a player wants to play a viable but non-standard role (like Defender-as-striker; something doable with almost every defender type made, from the Swordburst focused swordmage to the boosted fighter to, yes, a damage focused Warden), the solution isn't to "teach them the error of their ways," but to make sure they aren't ruining anyone else's fun.

The GM isn't the GM because they're smarter and better than the other players. They're the GM because they're the player who has volunteered for the GM role/duties. When you start out assuming the GM is inherently superior to the players (as opposed to, yes, having some privileges because of the role they've taken on), you're doing it wrong.

edit: thanks, Nullzone!
 
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