Pathfinder 1E Is Spring Attack overpowered?

[sheadunne]

Read this thread, or at least page 3 where the designers come in and say what's what.

paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / General Discussion / Archives / Spring attack errata'd to a full round action. Skirmishers everywhere are now screwed!

Some nice quotes from it, in case you don't want to, which is cool

ATTACK ACTION is an attack (melee or ranged) that is taken on your turn as part of your normal sequence of actions.
ATTACK is any offensive action taken against another using a D20 to adjudicate.

Note that not all ATTACKs are ATTACK ACTIONS.

Attacks of opportunity for instance is an attack (with a roll of a die), but not an ATTACK ACTION as it was not taken during your normal sequence of actions on your turn.

An ATTACK ACTION is a TYPE of STANDARD ACTION. (so is casting a spell a type of STANDARD ACTION).

Note - once again, ATTACK ACTION is a type of STANDARD ACTION, where as an Attack of Opportunity is a type of attack, but not a type of STANDARD ACTION and thus it is not an ATTACK ACTION - because all ATTACK ACTIONS are STANDARD ACTIONS, but not all attacks are ATTACK ACTIONS.

An ATTACK ACTION allows a MOVE ACTION to be done in conjunction with it - just like ALL other STANDARD ACTIONS do.

Again note not ALL types of attacks allow you to have a MOVE ACTION in conjunction with it - an attack of opportunity as mentioned above is NOT an ATTACK ACTION - not a STANDARD ACTION at all - thus it does not allow a MOVE ACTION to accompany it. (which I'm sure you already know).

So now hopefully you see the difference between a specified category: ATTACK ACTION, and the idea of making an attack.

So just because it's an ATTACK and it's an ACTION - doesn't classify it in game terms as an ATTACK ACTION; unless it fits certain criteria.

Robert

Hey there all,

Robert basically has this right here and I will look to clarify up the terminology a bit in the next printing.

I do want to point out one thing here. Messageboard posts are never official, no matter who they come from. The only official source of changes and rulings is the FAQ and the update documents at this time. We here at Paizo will give out opinions and you can feel free to use those as you see fit in your game, but beyond that it is left for your GM to decide (as it should be with all such matters).

We are never going to be able to rule on every single issue that comes up. This game is just too complex for that, so this is the only way to keep our sanity intact (and yours).

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

(Creative Director), Thu, Oct 7, 2010, 11:16 PM FLAG | LIST | FAQ | REPLY

Ravingdork wrote:

According to the game designers, you're both wrong.
The term needs to be done away with entirely, in large part because its not a defined term (nor should it be) and is only serving to muck things up royally.


Cite please? Because other then JJ mucking things up, I don't remember any other game designers contradicting what has been used since 3.x days.

Don't tell Lisa! I'll get fired!
On a more serious note; threads like this kind of make me sad. Think of all the fun gaming time that could have been had instead of spending hours arguing over a a rule!

I often miss the days where the GM got to decide how things worked in the game.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Within the link you posted, was a link to this post from 2009 which made it more clear:

Hey there everybody,


Let me see if I can clean this up a bit.


Cleave is a standard action, which means you can use it anytime you can take a standard action. It cannot be used as part of a full-attack action, which is a full round action. You cannot use Cleave as part of a charge, since that is a special full-round action (partial charge not withstanding). The same applies to Great Cleave.


Vital Strike can be used in place of an attack action. This means that whenever you take an attack action, you can use Vital Strike instead. An attack action is a type of standard action. While this is nearly identical to Cleave, there are a few subtle differences. Anything that applies to an attack action would apply to a Vital Strike attack, whereas it would not, necessarily, apply to Cleave. The two feats cannot be used in conjunction.


I am not sure that answers all the questions here.. but I will check back later to see if there is anything I have missed.


Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

There is also another quote where, upon the same reasoning, Jason says that Vital Strike cannot be used as part of a charge.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

riatin wrote:

Charge is a specific type of full round action, Vital Strike and its associated feats cant be used in conjunction with a charge as they use standard actions.​

This is correct.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
​

This makes it relatively clear that Vital Strike cannot be used, per RAW, as part of a Spring Attack.

Personally, I would still allow it. Anything that creates more movement in the game is good. But I am now *quite* convinced that per RAW, the answer is no.

 

[pawsplay]

I'm glad that's settled. Incidentally, for the rules which govern this, see

p. 136 Vital Strike: "When you use the attack action..."
(This is the topic under discusson wrt to Spring Attack

p.178 Attack Roll "An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round." (This describes the attack roll, i.e. a single attack).
p.180 Making an Attack of Opportunity: "An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack" (included just as an example of the attack roll being used in a general way)

p.182 Standard Actions:

Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.

p.183 See Actions in Combat Chart, under Standard Actions

The latter decribe how attacks are made as an action in combat, rather than the mechanics. Full Round Actions, p. 187, breaks down the Full Attack, and says, "A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action."

This is one of those unfortunate situations where the rule is unambiguous, but not necessarily clear. I wish the action chart, for instance, defined Attack using the terminology Standard Attack, and I wish the section on attack rolls used the phrase "single attack" somewhere in it.

 

[Steel_Wind]

I'm glad that's settled. Incidentally, for the rules which govern this, see

Oh I get the general rule. I always did. The general rule was never in doubt. It's the specific language that persuaded the lawyer in me, (coupled with JJ's comments.)

The basic principle of all statutory interpretation is that the specific always overrides the general. (You can accuse me of being a "rules lawyer"; however, simply "lawyer" would be more accurate, mea culpa.)

The specific in this question was the unfortunate use of the words: "single attack" in both feat descriptions.

 

[pawsplay]

The specific in this question was the unfortunate use of the words: "single attack" in both feat descriptions.

Unfortunate, yes. You were reading Spring Attack as allowing any single attack, when it is actually written to allow a single attack. Unfortunately, the English language is ambiguous about general nouns versus categoricals; in this case it takes a lot of context to reveal which was intended (or indicated, whether it was intended or not).

Oy, vey.

 

[sheadunne]

JJ mucked things up.

I still think they need to change spring attack to allow a standard action, like flyby attack. Then it might be worth the 2 feat cost.

 

[Tharkon]

JJ mucked things up.

I still think they need to change spring attack to allow a standard action, like flyby attack. Then it might be worth the 2 feat cost.

Flyby attack doesn't prevent attacks of opportunity from your target, which spring attack does. That is an important distinction in my opinion. Though if you're comparing with shot on the run, then flyby attack is certainly better, as long as you can fly that is.

 

[Halivar]

So the answer to the question, "Is Spring Attack overpowered?", the answer is:

3.5: No.

Pathfinder: Heck, no.

 

[Tharkon]

I agree, not overpowered at all.

The most creative use I have seen is Spring Attack + Deflect Arrows + Spider Climb.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

It's kind of worthless if you go by "official" rulings now.

Best bet?

Just decide that martial classes can move and make a full attack.

Make Spring Attack a move action.

Done.

After all, by the time you can do that feat chain to get at it, the casters are dishing out a LOT more damage and providing a lot more area control.