Designing the Perfect D&D

[jmucchiello]

[*]Str, Int and Cha seems less important than Con, Dex and Wis. Do they influence some rule aspects you haven't shown yet?

Not per se at this point. I've recognized the disparity, actually, and am mulling over ways to bring up the value of the 'other three'. I'm not quite sure what I'm doing with them yet; however, since combat is deadly (witness those low hit points!) I'm thinking that will encourage noncombat solutions to some problems (witness the old days, when pcs parlayed with goblins and stuff fairly routinely).

You could just eliminate them. You have no other sacred cows, really. Why require 6 abilities scores?

 

[Whisper72]

Yeah... In a game I am designing, I go for the following stats:
- Smarts (intelligence)
- Brawn (strength/con)
- Balance (dex)
- Charm (charisma/wisdom)

Which covers all...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I have to admit, I'm really not a fan of the random increases in ability scores by level.

It seems too easy to get two fighters, one who rolled well and one who didn't, and have the player of the second decide that the whole shooting match sucks.

It seems like one of those rules which is put in with the understanding that the GM running things will fudge it to maintain balance (e.g., enforcing some kind of minimum roll or allowing rerolls for a chain of poor rolls, etc.), and I prefer rulesets that eliminate those from the get-go. (I admit it - I also haven't rolled hit points for years.)

 

[the Jester]

I have to admit, I'm really not a fan of the random increases in ability scores by level.

It seems too easy to get two fighters, one who rolled well and one who didn't, and have the player of the second decide that the whole shooting match sucks.

It seems like one of those rules which is put in with the understanding that the GM running things will fudge it to maintain balance (e.g., enforcing some kind of minimum roll or allowing rerolls for a chain of poor rolls, etc.), and I prefer rulesets that eliminate those from the get-go. (I admit it - I also haven't rolled hit points for years.)

I understand where you're coming from, but bear in mind that you're talking about 2 to 4 dice per stat that advances per level. I think it's almost impossible for that not to average out over several levels.

Likewise, with hit points, notice that each time you gain hit points, you reroll all your hit dice and take either the your old total or the new one, whichever is higher. Again, over time, pcs should end up with average or higher hit points.

However, I fully get that a lot of people prefer less randomness in their games than I do. My groups tend to like a certain amount of chaos though (I have employed a d1000 random Chaos trait when pcs were exposed to certain ultrapowerful Chaotic energies in my 3.5 game).

 

[the Jester]

KOBOLD

Kobold
Small humanoid 1st level skirmisher (canine, reptilian)
Hit Dice: 1d6+1 (4 hp); AC: 13
Melee: +0; Fort: 11
Ranged: +0; Reflex: 16
Spell: +0; Will: 13

Perceptions: Darkvision
Initiative +0; Speed 30'
Languages Common, Draconic

Str 6, Int 10, Wis 9, Dex 17, Con 3, Cha 15

STANDARD ACTIONS
Dagger (ranged): +3 ranged (1d4/19-20, range 3).
Dagger (melee): +3 melee (1d4/19-20)

MINOR ACTIONS
Shift 1 square.

Skill Bonuses +2 to stealth or trap-related skill checks
Equipment leather armor, dagger

Kobold Scoundrel
Small humanoid 1st level skirmisher/3rd level rogue (canine, reptilian)
Hit Dice: 2d6+1 (8 hp); AC: 13
Melee: +0; Fort: 11
Ranged: +0; Reflex: 19
Spell: +0; Will: 13

Perceptions: Darkvision
Initiative +0; Speed 30'
Languages Common, Draconic

Str 6, Int 10, Wis 9, Dex 17, Con 3, Cha 15

TRAITS
Sneak Attack +1d6.
One-Handed Weapon Style: +1 to melee attacks with one weapon and one hand free.
Knife Stance: +1 to melee and ranged attacks with light blade.
Stealthy Stance: +2 bonus on skill checks to be sneaky.

STANDARD ACTIONS
Dagger (ranged): +3 vs. AC (1d4/19-20, range 3).
---With one-handed weapon style and knife stance: +4 ranged (1d4/19-20, range 3)
Dagger (melee): +3 vs. AC (1d4/19-20)
---With one-handed weapon style and knife stance: +5 melee (1d4/19-20, range 3)

MINOR ACTIONS
Shift 1 square.

Skill Bonuses +3 to stealth or trap-related skill checks; +1 to all other skill checks.
Equipment leather armor, dagger

Kobold Assassin
Small humanoid 1st level skirmisher/3rd level rogue/1st level assassin (canine, reptilian)
Hit Dice: 2d6+1 (8 hp); AC: 13
Melee: +0; Fort: 11
Ranged: +0; Reflex: 20
Spell: +0; Will: 13

Perceptions: Darkvision
Initiative +0; Speed 30'
Languages Common, Draconic

Str 6, Int 10, Wis 9, Dex 17, Con 3, Cha 15

TRAITS
Sneak Attack +1d6.
One-Handed Weapon Style: +1 to melee attacks with one weapon and one hand free.
Knife Stance: +1 to melee and ranged attacks with light blade.
Stealthy Stance: +2 bonus on skill checks to be sneaky.

STANDARD ACTIONS
Dagger (ranged): +3 vs. AC (range 3) (1d4/19-20).
---With one-handed weapon style and knife stance: +4 vs. AC (1d4/19-20, range 3)
Dagger (melee): +3 vs. AC (1d4/19-20)
With one-handed weapon style and knife stance: +5 vs. AC (1d4/19-20, range 3)
Death Attack (recharges on a 17+): If you have combat advantage, you may make a death attack as a standard action. Make a melee or ranged attack vs. Fortitude. If you hit, you deal double damage and the target is dazed until the end of the next round.

MINOR ACTIONS
Shift 1 square.

Skill Bonuses +2 to stealth or trap-related skill checks
Equipment leather armor, dagger

Kobold Wyrmpriest
Small humanoid 1st level skirmisher/1st level spellcaster/1st level leader (canine, reptilian)
Hit Dice: 1d6+1d4+1d8+1 (11 hp)
Resist see traits; AC: 14
Melee: +0; Fort: 11
Ranged: +0; Reflex: 16
Spell: +1; Will: 15

Perceptions: Darkvision
Initiative +0; Speed 25'
Languages Common, Draconic

Str 6, Int 10, Wis 9, Dex 17, Con 3, Cha 15

TRAITS
Dragon's Blessing: The wyrmpriest has resist 5 against the damage type of its patron's breath weapon.

STANDARD ACTIONS
Staff: +2 melee (1d6).
Wyrm's Breath: +1 vs. Reflex against a target within a range of 40'; Hit: 1d6 damage of the same type as the breath weapon of the wyrmpriest's patron dragon.

MINOR ACTIONS
Shift 1 square.

Skill Bonuses +2 to stealth or trap-related skill checks
Equipment chain mail, helm, staff

Kobold Chieftain
Small humanoid 4th level skirmisher/4th level leader (canine, reptilian)
Hit Dice: 2d6+3d8+1 (21 hp); AC: 14
Melee: +3; Fort: 11
Ranged: +0; Reflex: 16
Spell: +0; Will: 13

Perceptions: Darkvision
Initiative +1; Speed 25'
Languages Common, Draconic

Str 6, Int 10, Wis 9, Dex 17, Con 3, Cha 15

TRAITS
Leadership: All kobold allies within 20' gain a +1 bonus on initiative.
Helm: -1 crit severity.

STANDARD ACTIONS
Spear (ranged): +2 ranged (1d6/x3, range 2).
Spear (melee): +5 melee (1d6/x3).

MINOR ACTIONS
Shift 1 square.

Skill Bonuses +3 to stealth or trap-related skill checks; +1 to all other skill checks.
Equipment chain mail armor, helm, spear

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I understand where you're coming from, but bear in mind that you're talking about 2 to 4 dice per stat that advances per level. I think it's almost impossible for that not to average out over several levels.

If you're only rolling a couple dice per level, and you aren't gaining all that many levels, then your sample size is going to be pretty small.

Small sample sizes lead to swingy results. If you want, I can run some actual numbers for you tomorrow, to give you a better idea of just how swingy what you've got right now is.

 

[Lanefan]

If you're only rolling a couple dice per level, and you aren't gaining all that many levels, then your sample size is going to be pretty small.

Small sample sizes lead to swingy results. If you want, I can run some actual numbers for you tomorrow, to give you a better idea of just how swingy what you've got right now is.

If you're rolling 3d10 per level to see how many % points you gain on your primary stat, and you plow through 8 levels, that's 21d10. (assuming 7 rolls; no roll at 1st level)

The average on 3d10 is 16.5. So, an average character is going to pick up 115% worth by 8th level; thus just over half the characters will gain 1 point (101%) over that span and the rest will be mighty close. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, particularly if the game features items on a regular basis that change stats up or down a la 3e. The secondary stat is even slower - 2d10 per level if memory serves.

Even a less big deal if you're rolling for base stats in the first place, which Jester's system features. That's where the true variability will come in; which is fine by me. Not everybody is physically/mentally the same.

Lan-"and some of us are really quite different"-efan

 

[the Jester]

If you're only rolling a couple dice per level, and you aren't gaining all that many levels, then your sample size is going to be pretty small.

Small sample sizes lead to swingy results. If you want, I can run some actual numbers for you tomorrow, to give you a better idea of just how swingy what you've got right now is.

Hmm, if you don't mind, that would be cool to see.

I doubt whether I'll ever have enough playtesting to see a truly statistically significant result.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Hmm, if you don't mind, that would be cool to see.

I doubt whether I'll ever have enough playtesting to see a truly statistically significant result.

No problem!

So, for my first pass, I looked at the Racial Paragon classes. They add +4d10% to a specific stat (which varies by race) each time you go up a level, and can be taken up to three times.

99.98% of people will never get a stat increase from those three levels - only 0.02% will get a stat increase there.

However, this is probably a bad example for how things work, because you have to intermix RP levels with normal levels. So, instead, let's consider a Dwarven Fighter 3 / Dwarf Paragon 3 - with Fighter levels adding +3d10% to Strength and DP levels adding +4d10% to Strength.

In this case, at 6th-level, you'll have about 11.3% of characters who have not yet received a bonus to their Strength score, while about 88.7% have. A disturbingly small number of players will have received a +2. Another way of looking at this is, if you had two players playing Dwarven Paragon Fighters in the same group, the chances that both of them had gained a Strength point by now is only about 78.7% - or, in about 20% of cases, one Dwarven Paragon Fighter has fallen behind the other (since in about 1% of cases, neither has gained a point).

Adding an additional Fighter level (F4/DP3; +3d10% Str) gives you 99% odds to have achieved a +1 bump, but in a still-high ~2% of cases (e.g., about as often as you'll see a confirmed greataxe critical*), one of the characters is stil behind the other. (Roughly 2 guys on Long Island've got a +2 to their Strength, assuming everyone there was playing.)

* Greataxes threaten on 5% of their swings, and a roughly 50/50 chance to confirm is about right over the long run.

 

[the Jester]

No problem!

So, for my first pass, I looked at the Racial Paragon classes. They add +4d10% to a specific stat (which varies by race) each time you go up a level, and can be taken up to three times.

99.98% of people will never get a stat increase from those three levels - only 0.02% will get a stat increase there.

However, this is probably a bad example for how things work, because you have to intermix RP levels with normal levels. So, instead, let's consider a Dwarven Fighter 3 / Dwarf Paragon 3 - with Fighter levels adding +3d10% to Strength and DP levels adding +4d10% to Strength.

In this case, at 6th-level, you'll have about 11.3% of characters who have not yet received a bonus to their Strength score, while about 88.7% have. A disturbingly small number of players will have received a +2. Another way of looking at this is, if you had two players playing Dwarven Paragon Fighters in the same group, the chances that both of them had gained a Strength point by now is only about 78.7% - or, in about 20% of cases, one Dwarven Paragon Fighter has fallen behind the other (since in about 1% of cases, neither has gained a point).

Adding an additional Fighter level (F4/DP3; +3d10% Str) gives you 99% odds to have achieved a +1 bump, but in a still-high ~2% of cases (e.g., about as often as you'll see a confirmed greataxe critical*), one of the characters is stil behind the other. (Roughly 2 guys on Long Island've got a +2 to their Strength, assuming everyone there was playing.)

* Greataxes threaten on 5% of their swings, and a roughly 50/50 chance to confirm is about right over the long run.

Thanks for starting to analyze this! I really appreciate having someone actually look at the math- I find that kinda boring, so it's pretty low on my priority list.

(One thing- in this system there is no "roll to confirm critical".)