Skill Challenge feedback

So we're about to release the first adventure in the series, and I wanted to know what people think about a skill challenge I'm considering putting in. If people don't like how it's structured, I can go to a more traditional freeform scene, without the skill challenge mechanic.

Suggestions, complaints? Thank you for any feedback you can offer.
 

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Here's my input:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-dis...hallenges-yet-another-sc-system-new-post.html

I think it's great for a 4E skill challenge. I just don't like 4E skill challenges and think there's no reason we can't write a better system from scratch.

My issue with it is telling the PCs they haven't put together enough clues. Who says? It seems arbitrary and abstract. It's why I don't like the SC structure - what is a "success"? And requires the DM to really think on his feet to come up with enough clues which are vague enough that a player doesn't pounce on them and say "Seriously? I don't know it's the suspicious guy in the rebel uniform hook hand and the broken jaw who's pointing a gun at the king because I only got 5 successes instead of 6?"

And surely a time-limited thing logically just requires the task cmpleted before the time runs out. "Before X failures" has always seemed abstract and bizarre to be. Surely "Within 3 rounds" replaces that logically? Failure is not doing it in that time; partial success is actually identifying a percentage of the bad guys within that time but not all of them. What *are* "failures" - in this context, just delays, surely? Nothing succeeded in that round; now you're closer to the deadline.

I friggin' hate "before X failures" because it makes no sense! It's gamism taken too far, in my opinion. It's an artificially forced point structure which doesn't match the situation.

I do like that you haven't described PC actions for them in response to skill checks, which is what 90% of skill challenges seem to do.
 
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Hi Ryan,

What I like about your scene is that there's clear story consequences - Do the bad dockworkers get passed the PCs? All of them or just the one?

What I don't like is that you're only engaging a few skills. I think skill challenges should engage more than half of the 4e skills. Also, there is no sense of development in the narrative of your skill challenge - it's static besides what the players bring to the table.

That said, I don't like the way skill challenges are presented in the RAW. I have some specific suggestions about ways to adapt the system to suit your needs, but it's related to a submission I just made, so I'll PM you with it.
 
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I will second Quickleaf's suggestion that a lot more skills need to be flagged for the skill challenge. And I've never liked saying, "These are the primary skills."

Perhaps 6 successes = 2 dockers identified, 7 successes = 3rd docker, 8 successes = Dafton?
 

I like the idea however I would add in Bluff and Intimidate as secondary skills that reduce the difficulty of the next insight or streetwise check one level (from hard to medium/from medium to easy/from easy to automatic success except on a natural 1). Checking the DC's in the rules compendium against the ones you listed also shows you are setting the DC at almost Hard, I would suggest setting the Streetwise and Perception to medium (12), and Insight to hard (19), with the inclusion of the secondary skills that should make things close, but not impossible for the PC's to complete.
 

Here's my attempt at it. I think this makes the PC goals and progress clear to them (by defining them in terms of tasks rather than "successes") and makes it very easy for the DM to run or expand upon as he wishes.
 

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Russ, not to get too defensive, but is "you succeed the check, but you haven't gotten enough clues yet to spot the crook" any more arbitrary than "you hit him with your sword, but you haven't dealt enough damage to drop him"?

I think your system works from the DM's side, but it makes less sense to me from a player's perspective. The player isn't thinking, "I'm looking for Boris." He's thinking, "I need to scan this giant crowd for suspicious people."

So he says, I scan the crowd, and makes an Insight check. You say, "Okay, there's a guy glancing around nervously." . . . I dunno, it makes it sound like, hey, I succeeded the check and spotted the suspicious guy. I guess I can stop now. If you then tell him, "Well, you're not sure he's a threat," the player will still latch onto proving this guy is a threat.

It creates a different feel: 'find Waldo' vs. 'figure out whether there is a Waldo, figure out what Waldo would be wearing, look for possible Waldos, rule out a few people who just like red-and-white striped shirts, then finally find Waldo.'

I do like some of the stuff from yours, though. Like clarifying that Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate are great for interacting with the three dockers to get them to give up the fourth guy. And changing the mood of the crowd based on the round, to give the event more of a sense of rising action and tension.



I drew this from Stalker0's Obsidian system. I trust his math, where he figured out that to give players a 75% chance of success (40% partial success, 35% full success), you set high DCs, rather than the ones WotC uses.

Instead of the core 4e style where you can use, for instance, Bluff to make your ally's Perception check easier, in this you make your own check to see whether Bluffing helps somehow. Or you just aid another.

Failed checks don't matter. It's "how far can you get before time's up" (as opposed to normal 4e skill challenges, which are "how far can you get without spilling any water from this glass three times").



I actually prefer a system where only a few skills are 'primary,' and the rest aren't as useful. I want skill choices to matter, and if you can solve any problem with any skill, it makes your choices less meaningful. If you can use Acrobatics, Athletics, and Stealth to win this challenge, why even bother having skills like Insight or Streetwise?

Now, if the players don't have good modifiers in the primary skills, they can still try to make checks, and they can get a few successes from secondary skills. But secondary skills alone won't provide enough successes to win the challenge. You have to use some amount of Insight, Perception, or Streetwise to find the suspects.



Here's how I envision the skill challenge working in play.

[sblock]I describe the situation, you tell me how you act. Once I've got all that, you make skill checks to see how effective you are. A 'successful' skill check DOES NOT mean you spot a guy. It means you were effective at whatever you were trying to do.

"I'm looking for people acting suspiciously." Okay, Insight. Success? You spot a lot of people acting suspiciously. Like seriously, there are seven hundred people here. If you want to narrow it down you'll have to observe them longer, or look for other clues.

"I'm looking for guys with weapons." Okay, Perception. Success? You spot a few people who might have concealed weapons. That in and of itself isn't a crime, but the overlap between the last two checks narrows your list of suspects to maybe 50 people of interest.

"Can't we just grab them all?" Sure, you could, but if you move against the wrong guys, any real threats might be able to hide from you in the crowd.

"I want to look for anyone here who's a repeat criminal." Okay, Streetwise (maybe History if a PC spins it as 'recalling files I read back at the police precinct'). If you succeed, you realize there aren't any noteworthy criminals, but I'll throw you a bone and say that your preliminary research tells you that dockers are most likely to cause trouble at an event like this.

"Okay, I look for dockers." First, another Streetwise to know the signs and fashions. Success means you can give the rest of the party a list of things to look for. Then a different PC can make a Perception check to actually find people who look like dockers. This narrows the list of suspects to maybe 15 people.

"So can we grab them now?" Again, you can go for it, but if they spot you taking people away they might be able to avoid you.

"Fine. I go and discreetly talk to people we suspect, and see how they react to scrutiny." Insight again, or maybe Bluff if the PC is pretending not to be law enforcement. Success gets the party to 6 total, so the PC identifies one guy who's definitely here to cause trouble, and two other guys who you think are his accomplices.



If the party has time to make more checks, they might grab the first three guys, then Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate them into telling their plans. Or use Insight to figure out that the guys are hiding a fourth accomplice. Then use a skill to find the guy before he goes through the checkpoint.

But if the party runs out of time, they might only get to interrogate the three suspects after the crowd goes through the checkpoint. When they discover the fourth guy got past them, he's harder to deal with now that he's closer to the VIPs. The PCs can probably handle one guy, but any sort of scuffle could disrupt the event.[/sblock]



Does that make sense? I'm going to tweak it based on what people have suggested.
 
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Russ, not to get too defensive, but is "you succeed the check, but you haven't gotten enough clues yet to spot the crook" any more arbitrary than "you hit him with your sword, but you haven't dealt enough damage to drop him"?

Because having abstract hit points serves a function; having abstract successes doesn't. Abstract successes simply aren't as immersive as tasks.

If he makes an Insight check and you say, "Okay, there's a guy glancing around nervously," . . . I dunno, it's very precise. It makes it sound like, hey, I succeeded the check and spotted the suspicious guy. I guess I can stop now.

You're focusing too much on the fluff text. Don't worry about my fluff text. So just change it to "You can see a couple of dozen people who seem to be looking round nervously. You'll need to narrow it down a bit". Then with the second check they see that one of those people has a hidden dagger.


Here's how I envision the skill challenge working in play.

I describe the situation, you tell me how you act. Once I've got all that, you make skill checks to see how effective you are. A 'successful' skill check DOES NOT mean you spot a guy. It means you were effective at whatever you were trying to do.

"I'm looking for people acting suspiciously." Okay, Insight. Success? You spot a lot of people acting suspiciously. Like seriously, there are seven hundred people here. If you want to narrow it down you'll have to observe them longer, or look for other clues.

"I'm looking for guys with weapons." Okay, Perception. Success? You spot a few people who might have concealed weapons. That in and of itself isn't a crime, but the overlap between the last two checks narrows your list of suspects to maybe 50 people of interest.

"Can't we just grab them all?" Sure, you could, but if you move against the wrong guys, any real threats might be able to hide from you in the crowd.

"I want to look for anyone here who's a repeat criminal." Okay, Streetwise (maybe History if a PC spins it as 'recalling files I read back at the police precinct'). If you succeed, you realize there aren't any noteworthy criminals, but I'll throw you a bone and say that your preliminary research tells you that dockers are most likely to cause trouble at an event like this.

"Okay, I look for dockers." First, another Streetwise to know the signs and fashions. Success means you can give the rest of the party a list of things to look for. Then a different PC can make a Perception check to actually find people who look like dockers. This narrows the list of suspects to maybe 15 people.

"So can we grab them now?" Again, you can go for it, but if they spot you taking people away they might be able to avoid you.

"Fine. I go and discreetly talk to people we suspect, and see how they react to scrutiny." Insight again, or maybe Bluff if the PC is pretending not to be law enforcement. Success gets the party to 6 total, so the PC identifies one guy who's definitely here to cause trouble, and two other guys who you think are his accomplices.



If the party has time to make more checks, they might grab the first three guys, then Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate them into telling their plans. Or use Insight to figure out that the guys are hiding a fourth accomplice. Then use a skill to find the guy before he goes through the checkpoint.

But if the party runs out of time, they might only get to interrogate the three suspects after the crowd goes through the checkpoint. When they discover the fourth guy got past them, he's harder to deal with now that he's closer to the VIPs. The PCs can probably handle one guy, but any sort of scuffle could disrupt the event.

And I think that's fine - if you're writing for yourself. But you're writing for a thousand people you've never met who want to run this adventure, and making it task-oriented rather than abstract success-oriented makes it much clearer for them in my opinion.

One of the most frequent complaints about 4E is the skill challenge system. This despite articles and clarifications form WotC; despite people popping up and saying "Oh, I'm clever, I can run them fine, I just do X"; despite all this, skill challenges get complained about a lot and a lot of people struggle with them. Heck, I struggle with them. In my current campaign I've gone so far as to actually ignore them and just wing something on the fly instead.

I'll tell you what. I'll playtest both versions and ask my players which worked better for them. I'm willing to bet that the task-based system works better.
 
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Fair enough. I'm reconsidering my stance. Most of my reticence comes from the fact that I've rewritten this damned scene 3 times already.

Oy. I'll go back to it after I've got the rest of the adventure in the bag.
 

Here's my direct feedback:

"Repeat this process"

This is not a great amount of fun. There was an SC I played through in an official WotC adventure that was essentially a move-through-the-wilderness SC, but each success just brought us to a town, and it required a huge load of successes to be over, so it resulted pretty directly in grind.

Roll some dice -> Get to a town -> Roll some dice -> Get to a town -> Roll some dice -> Etc.

Every "round" of skill checks should probably accomplish something specific, rather than just being a repetitive process of rolling, rolling, rolling.

"you should narrate each success...."
Actually, I think the adventure should tell me directly what each success means. I don't know what "gathering clues that don't lead to conclusions" looks like in the adventure. If the adventure can't tell me what a clue that isn't a conclusion is in context, why does it expect me to? If I need 8 successes, the adventure should tell me directly what each success looks like.

Primary Skills

You've got a bit of a catch-22 with this situation. You want to make it so that every character can participate in some way, without making every character just automatically use their best skills. As it is set up now, my usual Monday party (who almost always dump Wisdom...I don't know why...and don't have any "thief" types that might use Streetwise) would be frustrated at having to roll for 3 phases without being able to approach the challenge from another direction. It's a bottleneck.

Solutions

You might benefit from busting it out of the formal rigor of a skill challenge. Instead, simply describe the threat:

"It's your job to make sure no dangerous people get through the security checkpoint. What do you do?"

And then give specific results, specific threats and specific actions for individual players:
Scan the Crowd: Use Passive Insight. Passive insight of X detects one dock worker, if it's Y, you detect 2. 3 and 4 require specific checks, but Passive Insight of Z and Q will alert a character to making more checks.
Ask Questions: Use Streetwise. A streetwise roll of Q detects 1 dock worker, +2 for each additional dockworker.
Put Down the Rabble: If any dockers are detected, you've gotta eject 'em: roll an Athletics check to toss 'em out of the crowd!

Generally, these specificities fit into three broad categories: Knowledge/Stealth; Interaction/Diplomacy; Physical/Agility. Give each category something to do, and you'll hit most of the high notes.

You can still make it "6-8 skill checks/successes needed," but I as a player definitely need to know what each skill check actually means and what I am accomplishing with it. If I'm just rolling dice to fill the void in between plot points, that's not exactly entertaining for me.
 
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