The Ten Commandments of Epic Gaming

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

I just created a new article on my website about the ten most important things an epic game should have.

Article: The Ten Commandments of Epic Eternity Publishing

Let me know what you think and what you would (and wouldn't) have on that list.

The article is also being discussed on the General Discussion forums (although I didn't start that thread) but I think its probably more at home here where there has been a lot of debate about epic gaming in recent weeks.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Interesting. Some of it I definitely agree is pretty much going to be required to provide epic feel. OTOH there are different styles of campaign design. For instance the PCs really need not be 'gods in training'. I've found I can generally hook the players. They may not personally care deeply about their character's home village, but the character does, and if they RP worth a damn at all they'll act on that. Not that the "power through worshippers" concept is at all bad, it certainly is a great way to go for a certain type of campaign.

I'd also say that there are other ways besides simply making everything huge to accomplish an epic feel. It takes some real subtle atmosphere work and whatnot, but you can definitely do it. There should be some really large scale elements, but I like to use them sparingly. Characters don't always have to be equipped with oversized anime weapons or fighting battles with a million guys on each side. You can accomplish similar things with enemies that are always constantly one step ahead, ancient, implacable, determined to play utterly for keeps, etc. Sure, those COULD exist at lower levels, but imagine the subtle power and guile of Dagon, a creature of utter evil which has existed since before time itself, knows all the little secrets of the universe, and has it in for your corner of reality (and probably all the rest too)... Half the time the PCs will simply be looking on in horror as their carefully laid plans and clever strategems turn out to be no better than children's crayon drawings in comparison with the ancient one's masterpiece of subtlety. No place is safe, no ally can ever really be trusted. No magic is powerful enough to be proof against THAT. Yes, the threat will manifest into some kind of terrible cataclysm at the right time. The epicness however is as much subtle depth of story and development of the bad guy as it is brute scale.

Anyway, you've done a nice job of condensing the most salient elements down to a nice list. I'd surely employ many of those techniques (planning on it in my current campaign, though I can't say I've really quite decided where epic is going in that one yet).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Interesting. Some of it I definitely agree is pretty much going to be required to provide epic feel. OTOH there are different styles of campaign design. For instance the PCs really need not be 'gods in training'. I've found I can generally hook the players. They may not personally care deeply about their character's home village, but the character does, and if they RP worth a damn at all they'll act on that. Not that the "power through worshippers" concept is at all bad, it certainly is a great way to go for a certain type of campaign.

Thats certainly possible if the characters have been roleplayed up from low-levels. But if the characters were created at Paragon or Epic tier then its more difficult to have any emotional attachment to NPCs.

I'd also say that there are other ways besides simply making everything huge to accomplish an epic feel. It takes some real subtle atmosphere work and whatnot, but you can definitely do it. There should be some really large scale elements, but I like to use them sparingly.

Absolutely. Just because an epic campaign should include great wars, massive monsters and have its collateral damage leave a lasting scar on the campaign world, doesn't mean every moment of an epic campaign should have them. Use them sparingly yes...but use them.

Characters don't always have to be equipped with oversized anime weapons or fighting battles with a million guys on each side.

True, not always. But they are signature features of EPIC-ness, so it might be worth considering them at some point.

You can accomplish similar things with enemies that are always constantly one step ahead, ancient, implacable, determined to play utterly for keeps, etc. Sure, those COULD exist at lower levels, but imagine the subtle power and guile of Dagon, a creature of utter evil which has existed since before time itself, knows all the little secrets of the universe, and has it in for your corner of reality (and probably all the rest too)... Half the time the PCs will simply be looking on in horror as their carefully laid plans and clever strategems turn out to be no better than children's crayon drawings in comparison with the ancient one's masterpiece of subtlety. No place is safe, no ally can ever really be trusted. No magic is powerful enough to be proof against THAT. Yes, the threat will manifest into some kind of terrible cataclysm at the right time. The epicness however is as much subtle depth of story and development of the bad guy as it is brute scale.

That would probably work once, maybe twice. But I suspect ultimately that if the villain is always one step ahead 'no matter what' that the choices the PCs make become immaterial.

Anyway, you've done a nice job of condensing the most salient elements down to a nice list. I'd surely employ many of those techniques (planning on it in my current campaign, though I can't say I've really quite decided where epic is going in that one yet).

Well I just hope I have given you and others a few ideas to contemplate.

Best of luck with your campaign, epic or otherwise.

 

[dray]

I like this -- thanks for putting it together! It's definitely something to keep in mind as a newbie DM with grandiose plans for the future.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Oh yeah, much welcome Krusty.

 

[Artoomis]

Since you asked, my response item by item (FWIW)

1. Thou shalt feature Big Battles

Not needed, though at Epic level, PC actions should be more and more world-affecting as they advance. Keep in mind, too, that PCs could stay at 30th level for quite some time before retiring.

2. Thou shalt make the game Challenging

Well, sure, otherwise it's boring. This is true a Heroic and Paragon, too.

3. Thou shalt embrace Collateral Damage

A good point, though wiping out entire cities is not really needed, though the threat should always be there ad, if the players choose to ignore the threat, well, then, it needs to happen.

4. Thou shalt include Contrasting Cut Scenes

Great stuff, but, really, not only for Epic tier.

5. Thou shalt Explore the Unexplored

I like what you've said here.

6. Thou shalt eradicate the idea of Fixed Level Encounters

Yep - players need to be able to recognize when they should cut and run and the DM needs to be sure that this is (almost) always an option.

7. Thou shalt have Monsters Much Bigger Than Gargantuan

I don't agree. Heck, the deadliest monster of all is often a human.

8. Thou shalt embrace Politics

Absolutely. But be careful, it can get really tough for the players to keep track of it all, they'll need some help.

9. With great power comes great Responsibility

I might take issue with a few words here and there, but the general concept is valid and an important concept for robust epic play.

10. Thy Weapons shalt be outrageous

I like it, but it does kind of go against the grain somewhat for fourth edition game design. Fourth edition has no truly outrageous weapons - even things like the awesome Holy Avenger are fairly underwhelming - it's all part of designing a well-balanced game system. Still, I like the idea and i think it can be done, but it must be handled carefully.

 

[Mirtek]

7. Thou shalt have Monsters Much Bigger Than Gargantuan
I don't agree. Heck, the deadliest monster of all is often a human..

I have to agree here. Too big is just silly and to me less heroic. After all you're no longer crossing swords with the biggies but act more like a virus attacking their cells.

I mean, just put the gargantun Orcus mini next to the medium-size Graz'zt mini. That's no aspect or Graz'zt or avatar of Graz'zt, that's him in his true form, his full splendor. Now imagine these to rivals to fight.

I mean imagine the situation with the planet size baddie in this one link. The small guy trying to push up her thumb would only see a flat featureless wall pressing down from above. He couldn't even see that it's supposed to be part of a thumb, because he's just too small compared to it. He can never really look at his adversary unless she's a million miles away. It's like standing right in front of Mt. Everest with your nose to the stone and trying to see the whole mountain or even just enough of the mountain to get a rough idea that it's anything than a flat wall without moving back.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I have to agree here. Too big is just silly and to me less heroic. After all you're no longer crossing swords with the biggies but act more like a virus attacking their cells.

I mean, just put the gargantun Orcus mini next to the medium-size Graz'zt mini. That's no aspect or Graz'zt or avatar of Graz'zt, that's him in his true form, his full splendor. Now imagine these to rivals to fight.

I mean imagine the situation with the planet size baddie in this one link. The small guy trying to push up her thumb would only see a flat featureless wall pressing down from above. He couldn't even see that it's supposed to be part of a thumb, because he's just too small compared to it. He can never really look at his adversary unless she's a million miles away. It's like standing right in front of Mt. Everest with your nose to the stone and trying to see the whole mountain or even just enough of the mountain to get a rough idea that it's anything than a flat wall without moving back.

That isn't the only possible 'ultra' sized monster concept you could have though. In fact there were some very nice threads back a couple years ago discussing super-sized monster encounter design. There are many approaches:

Monster as terrain - you fight ON the BBEG, this could be the case for a 'planet sized' monster, but it could also be something the size of a ship.

Multi-part monster - A monster with multiple different components which can be fought individually to some extent or other. They could be 'feet' or 'tentacles' or independent sub-parts (like a group of monsters but maybe sharing some stats).

Anyway, many possibilities for this kind of thing. I'd say that kind of thing is certainly going to go a long ways to feeling epic. It isn't the only way to go, but it is a good one. Remember too, epic is 10 levels, you're going to need to dig into the toolkit several times before it ends. You're going to want several different ways to create an outrageous adventure before you're done.

 

[Matt James]

Mike Shea wrote a pretty awesome novelette on running Epic Tier games. I highly suggest it for anyone looking to do such.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Since you asked, my response item by item (FWIW)

1. Thou shalt feature Big Battles

Not needed, though at Epic level, PC actions should be more and more world-affecting as they advance. Keep in mind, too, that PCs could stay at 30th level for quite some time before retiring.

I disagree with this for a number of reasons.

Firstly, its difficult to fathom an epic campaign that doesn't have some big war going on either in the foreground or the background.

Secondly, a large part of epic-ness revolves around scale: the size of the monsters; the grandeur of events; the number of people involved.

By keeping every battle between the PCs and about a dozen or less antagonists there is no real sense of progression. If the PCs face 10 orcs at Heroic, 10 drow at Paragon and 10 weavers at Epic, why can't they go back and take on thousands of orcs at epic?

2. Thou shalt make the game Challenging

Well, sure, otherwise it's boring. This is true a Heroic and Paragon, too.

If its such a no-brainer then how come WotC ended up making the E series modules a complete cake-walk?

I think, as Mike Shea points out comprehensively in his "Running Epic Tier games" pdf, Epic PCs are notably more powerful than the system takes into consideration.

3. Thou shalt embrace Collateral Damage

A good point, though wiping out entire cities is not really needed, though the threat should always be there ad, if the players choose to ignore the threat, well, then, it needs to happen.

The point was not to say you should wipe out whole cities, but more a case of saying embrace bad things happening to large areas and don't be afraid if cities do get wiped out.

4. Thou shalt include Contrasting Cut Scenes

Great stuff, but, really, not only for Epic tier.

As noted in the article, cut scenes work well at any tier - contrasting cut scenes are especially important at the epic tier.

5. Thou shalt Explore the Unexplored

I like what you've said here.

Thanks.

6. Thou shalt eradicate the idea of Fixed Level Encounters

Yep - players need to be able to recognize when they should cut and run and the DM needs to be sure that this is (almost) always an option.

This sort of thing needs built into the game at ground level. I'm thinking I'll expand the subject in a future article.

7. Thou shalt have Monsters Much Bigger Than Gargantuan

I don't agree. Heck, the deadliest monster of all is often a human.

You are confusing deadliness with 'epic-ness', or more specifically something with a potentially inherent 'kewlness' to something with an overt and obvious 'wow-factor'.

For instance Artemis Entreri and Godzilla are both cool villains* but one requires an intimate knowledge of his backstory to get across the fact that he is indeed an uber-deadly killer.

*Yes I know Godzilla is now the hero but initially he was a villain.

8. Thou shalt embrace Politics

Absolutely. But be careful, it can get really tough for the players to keep track of it all, they'll need some help.

One of the keys here is to gradually bring players into this and I always advocate roleplaying characters up from low levels (whenever possible) rather than jumping into epic right away.

9. With great power comes great Responsibility

I might take issue with a few words here and there, but the general concept is valid and an important concept for robust epic play.

Okay.

10. Thy Weapons shalt be outrageous

I like it, but it does kind of go against the grain somewhat for fourth edition game design. Fourth edition has no truly outrageous weapons - even things like the awesome Holy Avenger are fairly underwhelming - it's all part of designing a well-balanced game system. Still, I like the idea and i think it can be done, but it must be handled carefully.

...and people wonder why 4E epic, just doesn't feel epic at all. Its because the designers just haven't been allowed to make it epic.