Something, I think, Every GM/DM Should Read

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Just like you make choices in your game as to what you like and don't like. Be default, you think the way you play is superior to other ways of playing because that is the result of your choice (unless you're into chosing things that you don't like).

I don't think of any given playstyle as 'superior' because I've played in many different styles over 30 years in games which suggest very different approaches to GMing and playing - from AD&D and Runequest to Paranoia to Sorceror and Burning Wheel and Apocalypse World and Dogs in The Vineyard.

I think it's fairly clear that you haven't. I can embrace lots of styles of games. You've made it abundantly clear that you can't, but don't project your narrow-mindedness onto me.
 

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I think you're making a huge assumption here, that is probably one of the cornerstones of this debate. I believe that many, many GMs do not feel that it is "faster making it up off the top of his head". If that were true in every case then we wouldn't have "games" at all because there would be no rules.

Combat Maneuvers in Conan are a good example. If you want to clothesline somebody, there's a maneuver for it. If you're grappling with somebody and want to pull the character around in front of you using him as a human shield, then there's a rule for it. If you want to move out of the way so that your flankers attack each other, there's a rule for it.

It is so much easier for the player to simply state what he wants to do and then have the GM think for a second an apply whatever throw or modifiers make sense to him at the moment.

If you go with the printed rule, you've got to look up prerequisites and read how the rule is supposed to be implemented by the "book" and check to see if the character meets the prerequisites to even attempt the maneuver, and blah, blah, blah.

GM fiat is much faster.
 

I don't think of any given playstyle as 'superior' because...

Sure you do. As a Player, you have a favorite style of game and styles that you don't like. Therefore, you think one style of game is superior over the other.

As a GM, you think running your game a certain way is best, which, again, is a value judgement, with you picking what you think is the superior choice.

I think it's fairly clear that you haven't. I can embrace lots of styles of games. You've made it abundantly clear that you can't, but don't project your narrow-mindedness onto me.


LOL. Riiiiight. :p
 

Be default, you think the way you play is superior to other ways of playing because that is the result of your choice (unless you're into chosing things that you don't like).

I can embrace lots of styles of games. You've made it abundantly clear that you can't, but don't project your narrow-mindedness onto me.


Hey, guys?

The other guy probably knows what he thinks better than you do. Really, he does. Trying to tell him what he thinks is a losing proposition, both in terms of the strength of your argument, and just plain politeness.

So, how about both of you stop trying, please? Thanks much.
 

So, how about both of you stop trying, please? Thanks much.

No problem. Will do (actually, will cease). ;)





With that out of the way, let's switch gears and address the thread.

Why is it that people tend to give credence to a rule if its written down in a book but look at a rule suspiciously if it's a quickie GM judgement call.

Let's say a player is fighting two hobgoblins, and the player gets this bright idea. "I'm going to jump sideways and let the two hobbies attack each other!"

The GM scratches his head a bit on this. He knows it's not a simple maneuver to pull off, so he comes up with a quickie rule. He says, "This can only be a function of the Improved Uncanny Dodge Feat. If you've got that, I'll let you pull it off. If not, then you're not skilled enough to do it."

Player smiles. "My character DOES have Improved Uncanny Dodge! I'm going to attempt it!"

The GM thinks some more. "OK," he says. "Tell you what. Let's have all three combatants make simple DEX checks. If your PC beats either or both of them, the loser will attack his buddy as you describe. In order for them both to attack each other, your DEX check has to be higher than either of the two Hobby throws.

"The DEX checks simulate how quick you move in the combat. You'll want to move at the last second, or else they'll check their blows and continue to attack you. Your opposed DEX check will tell us if your character is quick enough to pull this off.

"But....there's a catch. While you're trying to make yourself a target and then dodge at the last moment, you're a bit easier to hit. I won't have them throw an Attack of Opportunity on you, because you are still defending yourself--just not as good as you could be.

"If either of the Hobbies beat you with the DEX check, they'll get a +2 to their attack throws and a +2 to damage."





Now, even though it makes sense, players (I take it many of the ones responding on this thread) won't see the sense in it, and they might even argue about how hard the GM has made it for the character to pull this off. Or, they might balk at the Hobbies' advantage if the PC loses the DEX throw...and they just plain won't trust this GM call.

A lof of you reading this thread, would feel that way, right? If the GM just came up with that off the top of his head, using his judgement and command of the rules.





Well, those exact rules ARE in the Conan RPG game. It's a combat maneuver called Pantherish Twist. The rules are exactly what I describe above.

And, since it is a rule in the book, nobody questions the rule. That's simply how Pantherish Twist is done.

Why will some people accept a rule in the book but not the GM's fiat?
 


Why will some people accept a rule in the book but not the GM's fiat?

That's a good question, and I'll do my best to address it. Many people rely on the rules as a form of support, be it player or GM.

As a player, it lets me know what I can reliably do. If I know that attacking requires me to roll a base attack + Strength roll, and I need to hit their armor class, then I can plan around that. I can attempt to attain a higher Strength, or a higher base attack, or a masterwork weapon (in 3.x), or feats that boost my roll. It lets me know how I can craft my character to play out the way I want it to.

For example, if I had in mind a character who was this huge brute that hit people with a giant axe, I probably envision a high Strength character, possibly with a high Constitution. Now, if I found out (through rule or house rule) that Dexterity is the attribute that covers whether or not I can hit someone, than my concept changes to include a high Dexterity, so I can make use of my giant axe.

These written rules give players a strong starting point when determining the mechanical manifestation of the concept of their character. If their mechanical character does not match their conceptual character very much, than they often find themselves distanced from the character, losing that special connection, immersion, or whatever it is that makes that character special and spark in their mind.

For a GM, having the rules to draw on is incredibly comforting when you are learning. After you have played with the rules for a while, you can see the strengths and weaknesses of the system. Lastly, having rules in place allows you to cite them when a player disagrees, even if they think it is a bad rule (you have even asked EN World in the recent past how to justify a mechanical rule, rather than change it to something perhaps more realistic, here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/304196-flat-footed.html).

Of course, it is true that the more you know about something, the more you can break the rules you were taught at the beginning. So, with more experience, it's much easier to break these rules and have an enjoyable experience, but I think that's a fairly universal rule.

As a player, the rules are their for guidance, and as a source of reliable material. You cannot reliably use GM fiat, for even an amazing GM must come up with the mechanical roll for you to use on the fly. You cannot know what the rolling mechanic will be any more than he does. Take, for example, the maneuver to dodge and have two enemies swing at one another. If I wanted to do that, and the maneuver had no mechanics, than I could have no way of knowing that you'd rule it a certain way, for even you have not decided what the ruling is yet (as the situation is only now coming up). However, as it is a maneuver, I know I can reliably use that mechanic, and I can temper a character concept by careful use of the reliable rules.

As a GM, they are there as a source of incredible guidance, giving you example after example of how the system envisions Dexterity being used, attack rolls being used, Constitution checks being used. The rules help you see the spirit of the game. Mutants and Masterminds use Hero Points to allow your character to do things beyond their normal control. There's a knockback mechanic for when you get pretty hurt by an attack. These help indicate the style of game the rules were created for.

When a GM begins to use his granted power of Rule and Overrule, I do not immediately buck against it. I'll accept it. If it creates an inconsistent or displeasing game experience, I'll voice my concern, and I'll drop the game if it continues. I will not try to take away that right from the GM, as he has the right to run his game the way he wishes. As a player, I think I should look for someone a little more in line with what I enjoy. Since, really, it's all about enjoyment.

And that's the crux of the matter, really. It's about mutual enjoyment, and it's about a consistent gaming world where reliable mechanics are incredibly useful. For all of my problems with 4e, I really, really like the idea of a unified mechanic for on the fly maneuvers (I doubt I'd like the implementation, but that was true of 3.x, 2e, etc. mechanics). Having a rule like that exist allows players to reliably use new abilities in a predictable method, and thus does not infringe on their enjoyment when something seems inconsistent. It prevents situations where an action was Dexterity once (because of the ability to react quickly) and Intelligence the next time (because of the ability to think quickly).

That's really it. I break or bend rules all the time, and I attempt to do so in a consistent way. I have the added benefit of playing a game of my own creation, so I can just fix previous rules as these new decisions are made. Regardless of that, I can say in all sincerity that I am an amazing GM, even though I embrace the rules. Honestly, my players love me GMing (I'm stuck never getting to play). I'd be a horrible GM to other people.

It's a playstyle difference. You wanted to know why people preferred rules over GM fiat. That's about it, I think. I hope it at least illuminates the issue, even if you don't agree with the playstyle. And, the real beauty of the thing, is that everyone gets to play however they want. And that's pretty amazing.
 


Why is it that people tend to give credence to a rule if its written down in a book but look at a rule suspiciously if it's a quickie GM judgement call.
[...]
Why will some people accept a rule in the book but not the GM's fiat?

In addition to Jameson's answer (or perhaps more of an expanion on a limited part of it), I, who both DM and play, buy rulebooks. I read them. I tend to memorize them pretty well, largely by accident.

Ergo, I have, in my head, most of the rules that are in play most of the time while, currently, we're playing a Pathfinder adventure path.

That means I can make plans as to what my character is going to do in this round, or the next, etc., based on those rules - and because I can, I usually do.

In a recent combat, we were fighting an invisible, flying enemy. Because I know the rules on what it means to have an invisible target (who occasionally gave her position away by attacking), I could formulate responses that, I hoped, would have a high degree of success.

For instance, when the party couldn't locate her, I cast Detect Magic - comfortable in the knowledge that, after three rounds of study, she (or, at least, her returning throwing dagger +something) would show up, and I could point her out to everyone.

This plan, to me, was workable because I know the way the various rules attendant to all the abilities in play interact.

If the DM had made a "quick judgement call" for how one or more rules in play worked, then my plan would not have the same chances of success; indeed, it might have been completely futile, and I'd've spent several rounds of combat (wherein I could've been helping the party fight the non-invisible enemies) acting meaninglessly.

So, basically, book rules are available to players, and let them plan and find interesting interactions and solutions to problems that are not guaranteed to be there under the "GM Just Makes Judgement Calls" system.
 

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