Scenario starting points and PC's position in the gameworld

Sure, but then why have this hook/intro at all? What is it contributing to the design of the adventure or the play experience that it offers?

Because you have to start with something. And I do think that even a reasonably lame start of PCs sitting in a bar hearing rumors reads better than "Word reaches the PCs, wherever they are, about x going on with y, blah blah blah."
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Given my - admittedly limited - knowledge of 4e, this would seem to be less of a problem than in previous editions: the power of the PCs relative to the rest of the world by virtue of their level is less explicit.

I think I have more of a problem with the wording, which is rather trite. If the PCs descended on an inn with a large entourage of retainers, men-at-arms, barbers etc., took every room available, drank all of the ale, and proceeded to agitate the local nobility by their very presence, I could see this working. That's what seems to be missing: I have no problem with higher level PCs using rented accommodation per se.
 

Bill91 said:
Taken together, I think these two issues are partly why 1e modules are regarded as good as they are. They tend to have very simple hooks to them, meaning many sorts of campaign styles can use them, from beer and pretzels fun time to more serious dramatic role playing. Therefore, they were used widely and now form a shared experience for thousands of old-timers like myself.

Just a point though - a lot of the classic modules had some really nasty hooks. Against the Giants starts out with the party accepting the quest or dying. Isle of the Ape has a two or three PAGE boxed text intro. IIRC, most of the early modules started, more or less, in medias res - even Keep on the Borderlands starts out with you on the road outside the Keep. The Lost City presumes you are caravan guards, lost in the desert and nearly dying of starvation and dehydration by the time the adventure starts.

Not that they're all bad mind you. Isle of Dread has some really cool hooks - that letter and map from Rory Barbarosa are fantastic.

But, I'm thinking that a lot of the early modules were pretty horrid when it comes to hooks. Great modules, but, if you were to start off modules this way now, I think the reaction would be pretty strongly negative.
 

But, I'm thinking that a lot of the early modules were pretty horrid when it comes to hooks. Great modules, but, if you were to start off modules this way now, I think the reaction would be pretty strongly negative.


Yup. Every adventure has a default start or possible starting points. The assumption with the classic adventures is that the DM would alter anything that didn't work for the campaign and go from there.

IMHO the same applies to more current offerings. The main difference as I see it, is one of clashing expectations. The newer rulesets don't inspire the same urge to tinker, change and create custom material as the older ones do.
 

Just a point though - a lot of the classic modules had some really nasty hooks. Against the Giants starts out with the party accepting the quest or dying. Isle of the Ape has a two or three PAGE boxed text intro. IIRC, most of the early modules started, more or less, in medias res - even Keep on the Borderlands starts out with you on the road outside the Keep. The Lost City presumes you are caravan guards, lost in the desert and nearly dying of starvation and dehydration by the time the adventure starts.

Not that they're all bad mind you. Isle of Dread has some really cool hooks - that letter and map from Rory Barbarosa are fantastic.

But, I'm thinking that a lot of the early modules were pretty horrid when it comes to hooks. Great modules, but, if you were to start off modules this way now, I think the reaction would be pretty strongly negative.

And isn't that partly what Pemerton is on about? He's having a negative reaction to a very simple hook, when that had been the norm and, I think, had contributed to the wide usability of those old modules. If a hook wasn't quite right, DM's came up with ones that were or found ways to integrate them into their campaigns. And the base simplicity of those old hooks (being on the road to the Keep on the Borderlands, being a caravan guard) made doing so easy. Pemerton's problem is he has set his expectations poorly and is over thinking the issue. He should be seeing the simplicity of the hook as freedom to modify or dispense with it as needed.
Contrast that with 2e modules being more tied in to both setting and plot and I think you have good reasons why there are many more iconic published adventures in 1e than 2e (and 3e and will be for 4e).
 

The newer rulesets don't inspire the same urge to tinker, change and create custom material as the older ones do.

Or, the newer players don't feel the urge to tinker as strongly as the older ones.

Or, we are just in an age where we hear about people not tinkering more than we used to.

Or... we could speculate ad nauseum.
 

If this is the same adventure I'm thinking about, the bit they overhear that presumably makes the adventure hook enticing is that they hear about a pale woman, dressed in black, going off into the wilderness. Which, you know -- could describe one of the PCs in two out of the three D&D ongoing campaigns I intermittently run, so I think it's fair to say that's a pretty weak hook overall. (Maybe in other groups "You say she wore black???? She must be evil! Pursue!" works, but not so much with my squad.)

Anyhow, I don't have a problem with the idea that players may enjoy having their players travel rather incognito. Humility is a virtue, essentially, and it can be a romantic one. Many players respond well to the idea that their high-level fighter prefers to think of himself as "just one of the boys" and drink with the local militia, or that the cleric prefers to mingle with the flock. There's a certain charm to being the badass who doesn't call attention to it.

But yeah, it's problematic to assume that's the default attitude, if for no other reason that you could be shaking things up. An adventure hook that starts with the PCs being feted for their last triumph is all the cooler because it establishes continuity with the last adventure even though they're unrelated. There are a lot of things wrong with some of the old-school adventure starts like "You are all wretches who, for your insulting behavior, have been captured and sentenced to Go On This Adventure", too, but at least they indicate that there are different ways to start an adventure.
 

IMHO the same applies to more current offerings. The main difference as I see it, is one of clashing expectations. The newer rulesets don't inspire the same urge to tinker, change and create custom material as the older ones do.

I was going to say "Bah. Bah!", but I thought about it for a minute, and it's technically true -- they don't inspire the same urge in the same people, but they do inspire a similar and just as strong urge, often in different people. Of course, there are so many other influences -- age, free time, competing media -- that it's kind of hard to tell how much is a factor of ruleset and how much is a factor of how much has changed in all areas of life from Back In The Day. I know I am inspired by different things these days than I was 25 years ago, but I'd be way hesitant to put that exclusively on the shoulders of shifting rulesets.
 

If the PCs descended on an inn with a large entourage of retainers, men-at-arms, barbers etc., took every room available, drank all of the ale, and proceeded to agitate the local nobility by their very presence, I could see this working. That's what seems to be missing: I have no problem with higher level PCs using rented accommodation per se.
Fully agreed with this. But that's definitely not how this scenario's starting point is presented.

I don't have a problem with the idea that players may enjoy having their players travel rather incognito. Humility is a virtue, essentially, and it can be a romantic one.
Nothing wrong with this. I'm not sure it should be the default assumption, but even if it is, it's not the feeling that I get from the scenario in question.

Just a point though - a lot of the classic modules had some really nasty hooks. Against the Giants starts out with the party accepting the quest or dying. Isle of the Ape has a two or three PAGE boxed text intro. IIRC, most of the early modules started, more or less, in medias res - even Keep on the Borderlands starts out with you on the road outside the Keep. The Lost City presumes you are caravan guards, lost in the desert and nearly dying of starvation and dehydration by the time the adventure starts.

Not that they're all bad mind you. Isle of Dread has some really cool hooks - that letter and map from Rory Barbarosa are fantastic.

But, I'm thinking that a lot of the early modules were pretty horrid when it comes to hooks. Great modules, but, if you were to start off modules this way now, I think the reaction would be pretty strongly negative.
I think the Against the Giants and Isle of the Ape starting points suffer from being such ludicrous railroads. (Is the Against the Giants intro a legacy of its tournament origins?)

Keep on the Borderlands and the Lost City, on the other hand, I don't have a negative reaction to. At least they give the GM a sense of the sort of situation the scenario author has envisaged as the prelude to the adventure - a situation that is easily conceivable for fantasy PCs, and from which the module scenario follows farily sensibly.

Every adventure has a default start or possible starting points. The assumption with the classic adventures is that the DM would alter anything that didn't work for the campaign and go from there.

IMHO the same applies to more current offerings. The main difference as I see it, is one of clashing expectations. The newer rulesets don't inspire the same urge to tinker, change and create custom material as the older ones do.
In my view the last sentence is a red herring. Of course a published scenario might require altering. My complaint is about an introductory framework that (i) contributes nothing to the framing of the adventure - unlike some of the intros that Hussar has mentioned - and (ii) that is in very obvious tension (in my view, contradiction) with the ruleset's default characterisation of paragon-tier PCs.

The Lost City intro tells me straight away what the module is about - PCs are swords-and-sorcery types who are about to get caught up in a swords-and-sorcery adventure - a Lost City! The intro that I'm complaining about doesn't do anything like that. On the contrary, in my view it contributes to the already somewhat widespread view that 4e is deviod of significant fictional or thematic content that actually contributes to the play of the game.

He's having a negative reaction to a very simple hook, when that had been the norm and, I think, had contributed to the wide usability of those old modules.
The scenario I refer to would be just as playable with no hook at all. So what does the hook do? It doesn't do the job of a Lost City-style intro - of setting the scene and kicking off the scenario. It doesn't do the job of an Against the Giants-style intro - of railroading the PCs into the evening's game. It's wasted ink.

If the module writer isn't prepared to follow Moldvay's lead and actually present a framing for the scenario that kicks it off in the right way, they would be better off to give a bit more introductory advice about what the main points of the scenario are, and therefore what sorts of themes or hooks the GM might use to bring the PCs into it. I think one reason the author doesn't do this is because there seems to be an approach to D&D module writing which is too much of the "write a story" school and not enough of the "present the GM with a tool" school. So rather than a frank metagame discussion by the author of how the module might be framed and introduced, the author writes a completely lame and anodyne introductory story. (And at least Moldvay's introductory story shows the GM how the module's author envisages it being used to make a compelling game. I can imagine someone picking up the Lost City and thinking "That's pretty cool, maybe I should find out more about this D&D thing!" Did the author in Open Grave really think anyone would have the same response to the intro I'm criticising?)
 

That is a point Pemerton. A lot of those early modules were intended, pretty specifically, as training tools for DM's. Keep on the Borderlands specifically is meant that way, but, I got the sense that a lot of the earlier modules worked that way as well. A more pedagogical approach than we see in later published adventures.

Just a thought about this though:

Bill91 said:
Contrast that with 2e modules being more tied in to both setting and plot and I think you have good reasons why there are many more iconic published adventures in 1e than 2e (and 3e and will be for 4e).

Something to not lose sight of when discussing iconic modules is publishing numbers. Those early modules had MAD print runs - easily dwarfing anything that came later and, a lot of those modules had very, very little competition.

Like I said, G1, one of the most iconic modules of all time, has a hook that would be absolutely panned if anyone at Dungeon tried it today. Not that it isn't a great module. It is and it has some fantastic stuff in there. But, the "iconic" status of a lot of these modules has to do with the fact that so many people played these modules, compared to later ones (many of which do, in fact, blow large chunks, no disagreement there), and possibly played them as players, not DM's, and might not even know about some of the more egregious bits in them.
 

Remove ads

Top