Cleric (Templar) is Up

[MrGrenadine]

That still doesn't validate your prior post, which is what I was challenging. Also, TSR was producing collectable cards several years prior, and merchandized anything they could.

Why does his prior post need to be validated? I also remember that there was a lot of support for WotC when they bought D&D, but I also remember there was some concern that they would muddy the D&D waters with M:tG features.

Not that my recollection would validate anything either, but there you go.

Also, the fact that TSR was stamping the D&D logo on junk doesn't in any way mean people wouldn't or shouldn't be concerned with the direction WotC is taking the brand. To each his or her own, you know?

 

[Tony Vargas]

That still doesn't validate your prior post, which is what I was challenging. Also, TSR was producing collectable cards several years prior, and merchandized anything they could.

The actual point was:

M:tG exists in a constant state of rules dis-equilibrium, with multiple sorts of play, new sets, classic sets, errata, etc. That's were D&D is getting to be, too. The game changes constantly, the new stuff shoulders asside the old, demanding to be bought, and organized play encourages competativeness...

So, are you saying that the D&D ruleset has been fairly stable the last 3 years? That there's been no power creep? No nerfing of older material, like the Cleric? That the new Lair Assault doesn't sound like it could promote a DM vs Players competative attitude?

 

[Matt James]

Now you're putting words in my mouth. You made a claim that M:TG has been a significant influence on D&D since WotC took over. I'm asking for you to clarify and quantify. You're coming back and a strawman? When did I ever say the game was stable with no power creep? It's cool. I know the answer to my original question now.

 

[Raith5]

Frankly, AOE areas burst 8 just shouldnt be in the game, full stop. The fact that it was on an encounter power just shows the immature state of the game when they designed it. Developers have clued on that close burst 8 is too much, full stop. The changes to turn undead and solar wrath reflect this.

I think they went way too far with turn undead being only CB2 but I agree CB 8 is problematic. I cant help but think that they envisioned epic encounters on a grand scale of large area fights with large scale monsters etc. But not having played epic I accept the accounts of others who testify to the over powered nature of some of these massive AOEs.

 

[keterys]

In playtesting a level 22 game, optimized turn undead characters were excessively powerful, to the extent that multiple encounters needed to be tweaked, including artificially changing creature types and making very sure that immobilized and pushed 8 away wouldn't just break every encounter

In general practice, even 28 x 28 maps a cleric could generally position to hit most or all monsters in an encounter.

And in something like 8 combats in Carceri, I believe that turn undead w/ immortals and elementals worked against something like 82% of the monsters. Even with trying to avoid those three types.

 

[Neverfate]

Divine Oracle has been stealth nerfed; according to the Compendium, the level 16 feature only applies to Cleric and Divine Oracle attacks.

t~

I don't mind errata. I think it helps the game or helps us get an idea of where the game is heading in terms of development and usually it's for the better, however, a minor disconnect like this is annoying. What happened in the brief period of the article going live and then copy/pasting it into the Compendium did this come up?

 

[Charwoman Gene]

This is why people like the other two James brothers, Brian and Mike, more than Matt James.

 

[Colmarr]

And in something like 8 combats in Carceri, I believe that turn undead w/ immortals and elementals worked against something like 82% of the monsters. Even with trying to avoid those three types.

This feature keeps coming up, and I think it needs to be explicitly pointed out that to get to that point the PC needs to spend 2 feats to boost a power that it will get to use once per encounter.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Turn Undead doesn't need nerfing, but full disclosure and all that...

 

[Obryn]

This feature keeps coming up, and I think it needs to be explicitly pointed out that to get to that point the PC needs to spend 2 feats to boost a power that it will get to use once per encounter.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Turn Undead doesn't need nerfing, but full disclosure and all that...

Yeah, but we're talking epic levels, where those feats probably couldn't be spent in many better ways. Once you get your basics covered, you still have some extra feats to play with, and it's far from ridiculous to spend two to make your minor-action gigantic high-damage, potent-control attack cover over half the available monsters in the game.

-O

 

[Aegeri]

This feature keeps coming up, and I think it needs to be explicitly pointed out that to get to that point the PC needs to spend 2 feats to boost a power that it will get to use once per encounter.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Turn Undead doesn't need nerfing, but full disclosure and all that...

It also needs a third feat to get turned into a minor action.

This doesn't change that it's utterly ridiculous and going back to an earlier point I made: Demons, Immortals and Undead are the sole creatures in 4E with an actual epic tier presence (As in there are a viable number of standard monsters for them). So pretty much it becomes a minor action close burst 8 that affects all the significant creatures in epic.

If I could make an epic tier campaign with say, Fey Court creatures and had enough creatures to make those encounters relevant (without making most of it myself) the limited targets thing could be a viable argument. But given the sheer lack of anything in epic other than demons in particular, it's not hard to make turn undead affect almost everything you fight! It gets to the point you have to work around it, by having terrain and other things that actively misdirect and affect blasts. For example, a huge glass surface with teleporting enemies. No line of effect prevents the cleric from affecting them with turn undead (unless they choose to be). Another example are phasing creatures.

At a close burst 8 with impressive damage and a minor action, it was really ridiculous. There was never any other reason to use any other CD.