Designing the Perfect D&D

[Lanefan]

Lanefan- thanks for continuing the discussion on illusions. It seems that your take on them comes out of 1e, when I would run them pretty much like you suggest. The "no (hit point) damage from illusions" thing I'm taking from 3e,

Thuis is one of many places I completely disagree with how 3e did spells, though in fairness this might have carried over from 2e - I'm not sure. But yes, I have a 1e approach to many things.

Anything that you think of as "save or die" is pretty much being modeled as ability damage of one sort or another (see Death Spell, Flesh to Stone). There are three reasons for me dealing Cha damage (and note that it's lethal Cha damage, so it kills you if you reach 0): 1. It's an illusion, so therefore it is psychosomatic; 2. Death Spell does Con; 3. It makes Cha more valuable (since an earlier comment that Int, Cha and Str seem less valuable than the other stats, I've been keeping an eye open towards rectifying that).

OK, I see your reasoning.

I haven't read your write-ups deeply enough to know whether abilities are tied to lots and lots of other things like 3e, or just a few like 1e. But if you're taking a 3e approach where all kinds of different rolls etc. are affected by your current ability score, my suggestion is to keep ability damage (ability changes of any kind, for that matter) extremely rare. Why? Because I found when playing 3e that constant ability score changes quickly became a bookkeeping nightmare; I kept losing focus on the story/battle/whatever we were doing because I was busy number-crunching instead. Bleah!

True, but ventriloquism was a 1st level spell, and you could use cantrips to provide odor or taste.

My theory is that it isn't which sense you're doing so much as how many that makes an illusion more powerful and difficult to cast (higher valence/level).

Fair enough, but be warned you'll have a headache once someone tries casting an illusion that is touch only...

Well, it hurts, it just doesn't do any actual damage. The creature thinks it does, though.

Sure, but once it disbelieves, the pain goes away.

Ah, that's where we differ. To me, pain is pain (or loss of luck is loss of luck, depending how you define what hit points really represent) no matter how it arrives; and you're setting yourself up for a headache once illusionary and real damage start getting mixed together - I take 10 points from an illusionary rock landing on me, then 7 points from a sword, then 2 points when I get burnt by an illusionary fire, then 6 more points from the sword and 4 from a magic missile but now I disbelieve the fire and we've both forgotten how much damage it did to me... messy. And it'll fall to you as DM to track the illusionary damage taken by each PC separate from the real damage they've taken, and by source when there's more than one illusion going.

Easier, I think, just to lump it all together.

Lan-"what is this thing you call a saving throw?"-efan

 

[the Jester]

I haven't read your write-ups deeply enough to know whether abilities are tied to lots and lots of other things like 3e, or just a few like 1e. But if you're taking a 3e approach where all kinds of different rolls etc. are affected by your current ability score, my suggestion is to keep ability damage (ability changes of any kind, for that matter) extremely rare. Why? Because I found when playing 3e that constant ability score changes quickly became a bookkeeping nightmare; I kept losing focus on the story/battle/whatever we were doing because I was busy number-crunching instead. Bleah!

Ohh yes. This is (one main reason) why there's no straight up "+2 bonus to hit" for your strength.

Ability scores matter only in a very few cases here: defenses, skill checks and ability damage. Well, and prerequisites. Of those, skill checks (being ability checks) take care of themselves, and you can ignore prerequisite issues.

Fair enough, but be warned you'll have a headache once someone tries casting an illusion that is touch only...

I think I would like having you as a player.

Ah, that's where we differ. To me, pain is pain (or loss of luck is loss of luck, depending how you define what hit points really represent) no matter how it arrives; and you're setting yourself up for a headache once illusionary and real damage start getting mixed together - I take 10 points from an illusionary rock landing on me, then 7 points from a sword, then 2 points when I get burnt by an illusionary fire, then 6 more points from the sword and 4 from a magic missile but now I disbelieve the fire and we've both forgotten how much damage it did to me... messy. And it'll fall to you as DM to track the illusionary damage taken by each PC separate from the real damage they've taken, and by source when there's more than one illusion going.

True- I'm mindful of that and am eager to playtest a game where someone is using illusions!

 

[the Jester]

Speaking of my tolerance for a little more complexity on my end... here's my draft of the xp chart for monsters. Since this is not completely written, it may not be entirely clear what something means, in which case I'll be happy to explain- and to know what I need to reword.

So here's the chart as it stands:


Hit Points --- Base XP --- Threshold --- Special Abilities --- Superior Abilities
1 to 10 --- 1 per hp --- 4 (+3) --- 5 --- 10
11 to 20 --- 2 per hp --- 5 (+4) --- 6 --- 12
21 to 30 --- 3 per hp --- 6 (+6) --- 10 --- 20
31 to 50 --- 4 per hp --- 7 (+10) --- 20 --- 50
51 to 75 --- 5 per hp --- 8 (+15) --- 40 --- 100
76 to 100 --- 6 per hp --- 8 (+25) --- 65 --- 175
101 to 140 --- 7 per hp --- 9 (+50) --- 100 --- 275
141 to 190 --- 8 per hp --- 9 (+100) --- 150 --- 400
191 to 250 --- 9 per hp --- 10 (+300) --- 250 --- 600
251 to 330 --- 10 per hp --- 10 (+500) --- 400 --- 900
331 to 420 --- 11 per hp --- 11 (+750) --- 600 --- 1300
421 to 530 --- 12 per hp --- 11 (+1000) --- 850 --- 2000
531 to 650 --- 13 per hp --- 12 (+1400) --- 1100 --- 3000
651 to 800 --- 14 per hp --- 13 (+2000) --- 1500 --- 4000
801 to 1000 --- 15 per hp --- 14 (+3000) --- 2000 --- 5000
1001+ --- 16 per hp --- 15 (+4500) --- 2500 --- 6000

Threshold: A creature's Threshold value is only used when figuring xp. It is the base used for determining when a creature has an attack or defense value significant enough to be worth extra experience points.

If a creature has an attack bonus of +Threshold or higher on at least one listed attack, the bonus xp in parentheses applies. For each defense of Threshold + 12 or higher, the bonus xp applies again. If the creature can deal a maximum damage of at least Threshold + 4 to a single creature in each round or Threshold to three or more creatures in each round, the bonus xp applies again.

Special Abilities: Each of the following abilities earns the creature this award once:

Resistance or immunity to up to two types of energy (or swarm); DR with a value equal to or lower than Threshold; ability damage of up to Threshold; an ability that can't be used every round that can inflict a maximum damage of Threshold + 10 to a single creature or threshold + 6 to at least three creatures; ongoing damage of threshold - 1 or less; the ability to inflict a condition that doesn't immediately disable a creature; ongoing ability damage of ½ threshold or less; fast healing up to ½ threshold; other abilities of worth, per the dm's judgment (especially defenses). Note that not all abilities are worth bonus xp (for example, goblin tactics).

Superior Abilities: Each of the following abilities earns the creature this award once:

Resistance or immunity to up to three or more types of energy; Insubstantial; DR with a value above threshold; ability damage above threshold; ability drain; an ability that can be used every round that can inflict a maximum damage of threshold + 10 to a single creature or threshold + 6 to at least three creatures; the ability to inflict a condition that immediately disables a creature (e.g. paralysis); ongoing damage of threshold or more; four or more attacks in each round; regeneration; fast healing above ½ threshold; other abilities of extraordinary worth, per the dm's judgment.

Let's look at a couple of examples:

Giant Worker Ant
Tiny beast 1st level soldier (insect)
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp); AC: 18
Melee: +1; Fort: 13
Ranged: +0; Reflex: 14
Spell: +0; Will: 13

Perceptions: Scent
Initiative +0; Speed 6, climb 6 (spider climb)
Languages -

Str 10, Int 1, Wis 10, Dex 13, Con 11, Cha 3

TRAITS
Ant: Ants get a +2 bonus on melee attacks and a +5 bonus to AC.
Tiny: Tiny creatures don't get a bonus kicker of 1/3 its hit points, but do get a +2 bonus to AC.

STANDARD ACTIONS
Bite: +3 vs. AC; 1d2 damage and the target is grabbed. See also drag.

MOVE ACTIONS
Drag: The giant worker ant moves half its speed and pulls any creature or object it has grabbed with it.


Iron Golem
Large humanoid 10th level soldier/6th level brute
Hit Dice: 10d8+6d10+38 (116 hp); AC: 21 (see also spell immunity)
Immunity see spell immunity
DR 15/adamantine
Melee: +8; Fort: 31 (see also spell immunity)
Ranged: +0; Reflex: 12 (see also spell immunity)
Spell: +0; Will: 13 (see also spell immunity)

Perceptions: Darkvision
Initiative -1; Speed 20'
Languages usually none

Str 30, Int 3, Wis 10, Dex 7, Con 24, Cha 5

TRAITS
Golem: A golem gets a +2 bonus to melee and spell attacks and melee damage and takes a -1 penalty to initiative.
Iron Body: Because it is made of iron, the iron golem gets a +4 bonus to AC and Fortitude.
Spell Immunity: Spell attacks automatically miss the golem.

FULL ACTIONS
Poisonous Breath (poison) (recharges on a 13+): The golem breathes out a cloud of greenish vapors in a 20' blast. It makes the following attack on each creature in the blast: +2 vs. Fortitude; 2d6 Constitution poison damage.

STANDARD ACTIONS
Large Greatsword: +11 vs. AC; 2d10+2 damage.

For the giant worker ant:

Base 1/hp (typically 4).
One defense is at least 16; +3 for threshold.
Gets to grab you when it hits. +5 special ability.
TOTAL XP: 8 + 1 per hp (typically 12).

For the golem, note that if it has really high or low hit points, I might need to refigure everything from a different line on the chart, but typically we'll get:

7/hp (typically 812).
Two defenses hit threshold (+100). So does its attack bonus with its sword and its damage output (another +100). Total threshold bonus = +200.

It doesn't have any special abilities, but its ability damage, every-round-damage output, DR and spell immunity are all superior abilities. +1100.

TOTAL XP: 2112.

 

[Lanefan]

Your ExP chart looks very similar to the one in the 1e DMG, only set out differently.

There, the base value is set by the monster's HD (or level, if a levelled NPC) instead of its actual number of hit points, but the rest looks the same. So, the formula goes

(Base + x/hp + y/special + z/exceptional) = total ExP.

Your lists of special and exceptional (superior) abilities are very close to the 1e DMG with additions to suit your system e.g. ability damage. You may want to look at just tweaking the 1e chart to suit; save you some time.

On a related vein, oen thing I've often considered and occasionally done is to do away with the concept of HD entirely, allowing me to divorce a creature's fighting ability from its hit point total. Its fighting skill is set by what I call its "Fight Level" (FL); a creature with FL 4 fights like a 4th-level Fighter.

So in your example, using this your Giant Ants could have FL 1 (like a 1 HD) but be much tougher than a stock 1 HD type, having an average of 25 h.p. each. Or some other nasty creature could have FL 19, ridiculous AC and defenses, but only have 14 h.p. - so if you can hit it, it's pretty much done.

I think the most extreme I ever took this was a gigantic 25' tall Cloth Golem, it had terrible AC and fought like...well, like a pillow (FL about 4)...but it had 250 h.p. because it was so bloody big and soft and hard to chop down!

Lan-"pillow fight, anyone?"-efan

 

[Lanefan]

...

Spam - reported.

 

[the Jester]

Spam - reported.

Hey, at least it came with poetry!

Re: The xp chart- the 1e chart was, as you pegged, my starting point. I actually did consider just using it, but the difference in HD between different creatures can be pretty extreme (1e was pretty much all d8s, except for death knights and maybe a thing or two elsewhere), which is why I'm using hps as the base.

But yeah, it's bugged me post-1e that two of the same monster are worth the same xp even if their hit points are significantly different. This is an area in which I am more than happy to take on a little extra math, especially since only I have to deal with it (vs. the players).

 

[the Jester]

PLAYTEST REPORT

So this last weekend we got together to game. I ran my 4e game Friday night and then again Saturday morning until about 2 o'clock, at which point we switched over to this system. Everyone made characters (except our host, who already had one) and we were ready to go by about 2:30; with some delays for lunch-related stuff we got started about 3 pm.

Between 3 and 7, we had:

4 combat encounters
A good amount of roleplaying
A good amount of exploration
A very minor skill-based encounter
Quick "this is how it works" on combat, skill checks, action points, recharges, etc- everything that came up- but this really only took a total of maybe 15 minutes.
A HUGE amount of discussion about various aspects of the system

Fast and furious. Very fun. Worked well and seemed to promote the type of game I was after.

The pcs were:

1 Halfling Fighter (focused on knife fighting type stuff)
1 Human Rogue (focused on throwing weapons, bought a war dog)
1 Elf Wizard (with Polymorph instead of Enchantment as a school; starting spells- alter self, scorching burst, false life, dispel magic).
1 Dwarf Fighter (a holdover from v. 0.22, which was signifcantly different, which we only realized when the first round of combat came up and he looked lost when I asked about stance and style; this was the host's pc)

First of all, it took less than a minute for the dwarf fighter to choose his styles and stances. Quick decisions, excellent!

The game is related to my 4e campaign in which the pcs recently dealt with the Garden of Graves section of the Tomb of Horrors 4e module. The playtest group (hereafter the "beta" group while the 4e party is the "alpha" group- same players, different characters) was on a mission to take rubbings of the doggerel from the start of the dungeon to a gnomish graphologist for analysis. To do this they had to travel several days through a fey wood.

Along the way, the first combat pitted our heroes against 6 goblins. The pcs got surprise and then initiative; between the snarling dog, the hail of daggers and the screaming dwarf, their morale broke and they fled without even attacking once.

Day 1 ended; the party rested without event. On day 2, they continued their journey through the woods, eventually falling afoul of a giant jumping spider. Though it attacked, it never hit, and the dwarf cut it in two with efficiency.

They party kept going, but heard a weird distant sound like a cross between the roar of a bear and the hoot of an owl (gee, what could that be?). Foolishly deciding to track it down, they first came upon a boar that was mostly devoured in the midst of a bunch of fur and feathers (and weird tracks), then followed the tracks to the nest of an owlbear. They rushed in to attack, barely hurt it, nearly lost the halfling and fled for their lives. Fortunately for them, said owlbear wasn't very hungry, was hardly wounded and, best of all, one of the few hits they landed had reduced its speed. So the pcs all got away (thanks to the halfling's second wind).

An hour's journey later, they halted for the night to rest and recover.

The next day, the poor halfling was all beat up (his second wind had restored him to 1 hp, so now he had 2 hp). The party moved on; I expected him to second wind as soon as he had an action point to enable it, but he didn't. I think he overlooked the possibility, although I mentioned it later.

The party kept moving, finding a gorge they had to either clamber down and up the other side (wasting hours of time) or cross a moldy, rotting, slippery fallen tree bridge. They all made it across with no trouble.

Finally, they reached the little gulley where the gnome was supposed to live. It was a rocky gulley that ended in a spring-fed pool, but there was no sign of any inhabitants. The party looked around and I called for a 3d10 Int check to spot the door (hidden by gnomecraft in plain sight). ONLY THE HALFLING, who was the stupidest pc, made it! Irony, I love you.

The pcs met the gnome, showed him the rubbings and spent the night (halfling inside, the others outside- only the dwarf could have fitted comfortably, and he warned everyone, "It's best not to have much truck with gnomes").

In the morning the gnomish graphologist gave them a scroll with three things scriven upon it: a set of teleport coordinates (hello pt 2 of ToH!), an image of the Devourer's face and the name "Acererak".

The party set off for home; their job, of course, it to alert the "alpha" group of who was behind the Garden of Graves stuff.

As evening fell, the party was attacked by a cloud of ten stirges. This battle quickly turned desperate (as all stirge fights should), but the pcs managed to get away alive. Unfortunately, Fenris- the rogue's dog- was sucked dry.

And that's where we ended.

The group really enjoyed it. They got something like 39 xp each, lost a dog and a number of daggers and therefore came out poorly as far as money, but when/if they get home they'll get paid, which will help a lot.

Feedback on Specific Bits of the System:

The halfling's players commented that he didn't see much of a difference between stances and styles. I explained: a fighting style is what's in your hands while you're fighting, a stance applies regardless of your style. He pointed out that some are very similar; I said Right, that's how you get additional bonuses. Aha! He discovered the value of the combo of a stance and style that each let him shift 5' before or after chucking a knife- that's a 10' shift before or after the attack or 5' before and then another 5' after, not bad!

We spent probably 15 minutes or so talking about the "frivolous expenditure of money for xp" system too, with various players asking whether this or that would count. Spending extra money to fancy up your weapons? No, you have those weapons on your character sheet, no xp. My favorite one was the rogue's idea- "What if I sneak into peoples' houses and leave money there?" Anonymous Robin Hooding in the night!

 

[the Jester]

For the record, I'm running another session of this tonight. The party is most likely going to get tricked into a trap that sends them into a megadungeon (level 3), but if they're clever they may avoid it. I hope not! I've got a ton of things in the dungeon that look like they'll work with the system, but I need to see.

Stuff like:

Diseases
Poison (for weapons)
Places that clever pcs can frivolously expend money for xp
Curses
Traps
Tricks
A lot of chances to make ability checks and check how the skill system works
A ton of new monsters
The treasure system (I've added a "typical treasure" line to each monster entry)

Whew! We'll see! It should also really help push an old-school approach to dungeoneering; there are empty rooms, in contrast to most 2e, and especially 3e and later, dungeons. Lots of exploration options; things that require clever player thinking; etc.

It should be fun, I'll letcha know how it goes.

Here are a few examples of typical treasure lines from existing monsters. As you can see, in some cases it's straight "x amount of money", kind of equivalent to the individual treasure types in 1e (IIRC J, K, L, M, etc.) Sometimes it's for each creature; sometimes there is only treasure in an encounter with a group.

(for the troll)
Typical Treasure 35% chance each: 1d10x1000 cp, 1d10x1000 sp, 1d10x500 ep, 1d6x500 gp, 1d6x100 pp, 1d8 gems, 1d4 art objects, 1 magic item.

(for the orc)
Typical Treasure 2d8 sp, 1d6 ep.

(for the orc champion)
Typical Treasure 5d6 gp, 2d4 pp. 25% chance: 1 magic item.

(for the ghoul)
Typical Treasure (Group of four or more) 50% chance each: 1d10x1000 cp, 1d10x1000 sp, 1d6x500 ep, 2d4x250 gp. 25% chance: 1d4 gems, 1d6 trade goods, 1d2 magic items.

 

[the Jester]

So, playtest report #2:

The party fell into the trap just as I'd anticipated- it didn't even occur to them to doubt the pixies that led them to it, and AFAIK they still think the pixies are legit good guys in need of aid (not servants of Acererak trying to lead them to their doom).

We had an interesting mix of nonlethal damage (3e style) from falling out of the trap into a pile of sand, ability damage (stirges and scorpion venom) and hit point damage that tore into the party- triple jeopardy, if you will.. Still, they came through the trap, scorpions and subsequent encounter with four lizardfolk and a couple of spitting drakes better than I expected. (I'm totally using the "lower levels of a dungeon are more dangerous" trope and the trap landed them- 1st level characters- in the third level, so I am expecting them to be hard pressed at best.)

No deaths, but the halfling fighter lost a leg.

 

[Asha'man]

Is he related in any way to Drelvin?