D&D 4E The "We Can't Roleplay" in 4E Argument

[LostSoul]

Just for reference:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuh6kiVrqpc]YouTube - ‪Bobby vs the devil‬‏[/ame]

 

[Keldryn]

IIRC in 1e, until the Dungeoneer’s and Wilderness survival guides there were no secondary skills (or skills at all, for that matter), it was all up to your background and the DM playing off of that if they wanted to. Or if you were an Elf. Then you saw everything, perception be darned. (kidding! )

Secondary skills first appeared in the 1e DMG, under "Player Character Non-Professional Skills." They were mundane skills such as blacksmith or sailor that reflected what a character did before becoming an adventurer. There were no rules for each skill, nor even an explanation of each entry on the table!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Out of curiosity, how much more difficult is the math behind ensuring that the party has a 50% chance of successfully completing the campaign from start to finish?

Its the same formula, just longer...and with a whole bunch of sub-variables.

But I don't care about that as a player or DM. I care whether I (as a DM) set appropriately difficult challenges along the way.

If I have an NPC say to the party that they must face the Triune Ritual of Fire, Blood and Song to be awarded the McGuffin of BBEG Whuppin', but that only "half of those who attempt the ritual survive it", I sure as heck better NOT set the DC of each stage of the ritual so that the chosen PC has a only a 50% chance of success. That's almost a guarantee of failure- 13% of the time he'll succeed.

If, OTOH, the Triune challenge was one "from which almost no one has emerged whole and unscathed", then those same DCs that set success at 13% may be perfect.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Not so. A 'skilless' skill challenge, in 4e, incorporates attribute bonus and level. By the mechanics of 4e, it works.

Yes it does- meaning STILL that there is no concept of actual skill in the challenge- all PCs of like attribute and level are indistinguishable in their arrtistic endeavors (sticking with the cuttin' heads example). And that is contra to the nature of the challenge.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In no instance of performance in any myth, legend, or fictional account has anyone ever had their ability to charm the audience, react to a change in pace, or intimidate their opponent prove the contest's deciding factor?

That, to me, is PERFORMANCE.

If you can play for hours on end as per the Endurance skill, that's great...but that ain't performance. Nobody ever went to a concert and was happy that the suckiest band played the longest.

That you choose the perfect song but play it poorly is not likely to win you a contest, unless it's one of those "that was bad but so sweet so you get brownie points for trying" things like winning the heart of a woman. It's not going to win her soul back from the Devil.

Bluff? You can't bluff sweeps, slides, pinch harmonics, arpeggios, time signature changes, mid-song key changes for effect, hammer-ons, pull-offs or being able to play a progression of 1/64th notes (or faster)... And if the contest is close and goes to a "call & response" challenge to break the tie, if you don't have REAL skill, you can't fake it- you will lose.

Even if it's not so dire as all that, PERFORMANCE is often the key...sometimes literally. There was an adventure on some animated kid's show back in the 1980's in which the locks in the city only responded to pure musical notes. What skill in 4Ed let's you ID something as the A# above middle C?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Whew!

All that said- that's all mechanics issues, of which I have many with 4Ed- but not a bit of it actually impacts RP, this thread's actual subject matter. It limits quantifiable character abilities, it limits certain PC conceptions, but not RP.

 

[IanB]

What skill in 4Ed let's you ID something as the A# above middle C?

The line in your character background writeup that says you're a musician.

Performance and crafting and stuff like that, I just would leave up to the players to write into their histories. Then I can play off that stuff in designing an adventure that those characters will be participating in, and if I need to roll a check it can always be stat+2/4/6 vs. a DC.

EDIT: And I should say, for stuff like that where we're talking about actual training/practice required (not simple singing or whittling a stick to a point, but playing a harpsichord or forging a sword) then I probably wouldn't even let the character try. If someone has to play the Great Evil Pipe Organ of Imix V to open some door, well, there are always musicians looking for work. But again, I wouldn't throw something like that at a party that had no reasonable chance to succeed at it, without some other reason for doing it, at least.

What I prefer about doing that way is that the player isn't forced to make a decision between min/maxy skills that get used all the time in adventures and ones chosen more for flavor reasons but that come up in RP situations and the like. (I also wish utility powers didn't force that decision point as much as they do but that's a rant for another time.)

As long as the player doesn't go all Martin Prince in their backstory ("I am a dervish of declension and a conjurer of conjugation, with a million hit points and maximum charisma!") then it works out just fine.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

mysterious double post...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I probably wouldn't even let the character try. If someone has to play the Great Evil Pipe Organ of Imix V to open some door, well, there are always musicians looking for work

Ew.

Why would you want to take the task of advancing the plot away from the PCs? I did that once and have always regretted it. It took away a moment for a PC (or PCs) to shine and resulted in an anticlimax.

By taking away a chance to solve a mystery/puzzle simply because it's musical or artistic seems...arbitrary.

 

[IanB]

Ew.

Why would you want to take the task of advancing the plot away from the PCs? I did that once and have always regretted it. It took away a moment for a PC (or PCs) to shine and resulted in an anticlimax.

By taking away a chance to solve a mystery/puzzle simply because it's musical or artistic seems...arbitrary.

Well you left off this bit from that statement:

But again, I wouldn't throw something like that at a party that had no reasonable chance to succeed at it, without some other reason for doing it, at least.

If I have a party with no characters with any performance background, why am I throwing something that requires one at them in the first place?