As is my tradition, each time a game ends, I try to learn from it. This time I'm looking at my group’s lengthy (for us) foray into the depths of tactical roleplaying, 4th Edition D&D. This is an overview of my group’s 8-month experience in the system and NOT intended as an opportunity for edition-bashing.
From My Previous Post-Mortem (following SWADE Holler)…
“Do you ever know something is going to fail before trying it? Do you sometimes feel insulted that a group won't listen to your advice, as a seasoned GM?
Because the group is picking 4e D&D - with 8 players. Who already hated Gamma World. This is the kind of mistake that kills a gaming group, but no one will listen to me.
Be ready for that Post-Mortem in approximately 2 weeks.”
Here it is, 8 months later…
A Not-So Brief History of Me and 4th Edition
Like many others, I was chugging along happily enough in 3.x – well, actually a little more invested in it than the average DM. I was a published 3.x adventure designer and was in the deep in the process of writing a huge 200+ page mega adventure with a publisher lined up when the 4E announcement was made. And we saw it was different. And there was not going to be an SRD. The publisher went out of business. So, my project was ended, and I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder.
But this was still D&D, and I was going to play it. My existing 3.x group tried to switch over with the admittedly not excellent Keep on the Shadowfell, and that experiment with 4E ended after one Level 1-3 adventure. The group tried a handful of other systems (including Hollow Earth Expedition) before settling in with Pathfinder – and then dissolving altogether a few years later.
But towards the end of 4E’s (kinda short) lifecycle, I had a resurgence with it. A friend of mine owned a game store and asked me to come in and run D&D Encounters (with 4E). So every Wednesday night, I was running brief combat scenarios. It got so popular we had 3+ tables of it. And it was fun! We’d play a single fight for 1-1.5 hours, then walk down the strip mall to a sports bar, grab wings and beer.
D&D Encounters ended after around a year, transitioned to 5E, and our groups lost interest.
When 4E Growled Back
One afternoon, my wife was bored and asked about what came before she joined the hobby in 5E. I smiled and offered to run her some short combats with Old School Essentials, 2nd Edition AD&D, Pathfinder, and 4E. And she had a great time with the sample combat in 4E – starting off as a competent warrior, with interesting decisions, monsters that had thrilling moves, etc.
“Why isn’t everyone playing this?” she asked.
A year later, we went to GenCon and got into a 4E game, and she was hooked. It became her favorite edition of D&D (or any TTRPG). She longed for a group who would play it, but pretty much resigned to the fact it would only be at conventions.
About the Group and Selection of the Game
The group of players included my wife, our neighbor (who grew up with THAC0-era D&D) and his two college-aged sons, his co-worker (who also grew up with the same era of D&D, but prefers more story-focused games), and two teenage sisters also from our neighborhood. (Ultimately, the younger sister ended up leaving to start her own D&D group with friends from school – congrats for her! And the older sister has a job where she misses the first 1.5 hours of about every session.)
We started a group of 5E D&D about two years ago. During that time, we played through a combination of Saltmarsh and OAR’s Isle of Dread, and then a following campaign of Curse of Strahd. After Strahd we took a break from 5e with 4e Gamma World and Savage Worlds Holler, each for a few sessions.
After trying out so many games, my wife finally had talked them into trying 4E. My neighbor’s co-worker remembered liking the system “back in the day.” She and my neighbor even bought their own used copies of the Player Handbooks.
The Digital Elephant in the Room – No Tools
The first thing that instantly hampers the modern 4E experience compared to how we played it on those carefree Wednesday Encounters games 15+ years ago … D&D Insider is gone. Having access to the character builder, encounter builder, monster editing tools, Dungeon adventures, etc., was an invaluable resource.
Today, well, let’s just say I was able to get access to resources that kinda worked. But it was an effort and no one else had access to the character builder.
So we did a hodge-podge of paper character sheets, and I would update them on the Character Builder and print their selections and cards. And then I couldn’t put their characters in the software exactly the way it was written – sometimes because the player had made an error or other times because the Character Builder wasn’t set up with every option. And then the players would get upset, and I’d have to redesign the character and print it again. All told, every character was 5 pages of printing. We played for 8 levels. We ended up with 6 permanent characters. 6x8x5 = 240. I printed 240 pages of character sheets, not including the ones I had to re-do.
Being responsible for everyone’s characters in addition to running the game was an added level of effort that was necessary for the game to work, but it greatly wore me down.
Easy-Peasy D&D Encounters Squeezy?
My elevator pitch: “Let’s try a Level 1-3 D&D Encounters season. It’s a short foray to try out the system.” Encounters would be easy to run. After all, I ran them back in the day at the Game Store with zero prep with complete strangers.
So, I got the Lost Crown of Neverwinter – one that I remember my Wednesday group really enjoyed. Also, I got the Neverwinter Campaign Setting book, so I could expand, if necessary, since this was going to be a home campaign.
It lasted until the second combat encounter. “It was too difficult,” they argued. “It didn’t make sense that they had to wait until the end of a chapter to take a long rest,” they argued.
Well, if we were going to play this system, I’d have to create my own adventures in Neverwinter. How bad could it be?
Don’t “4E” with the Formula!
When half your party of 6 players is Strikers, all rushing to deal the most damage, you might have a problem.
When one of your 2 Leaders only heals herself because she’s taking so much damage, you might have a problem.
When no one wants to be a Defender, because “it’s boring,” you might have a problem.
When people save their big daily powers for the last round of combat and don’t get the full benefit of lingering effects, you might have a problem.
The group did a bad job of synergizing, of meeting 4E on its terms, and as a result – encounter building became almost impossible. I couldn’t throw any encounters even slightly above their XP total at them – even taking out the Leader who healed herself out of the equation.
When monsters would have special abilities like “when the creature takes Fire damage, it gets to shift 3 spaces,” the players would accuse me of lying and I would have to explain that monsters had special abilities in the game. This happened every encounter.
People wouldn’t pay attention during other players’ turns or would distract others with stories, memes on their phones, TikTok videos, etc. Because the game was boring. Because fights would take 1.5 hours. Because people weren’t paying attention. This created a feedback loop of exhausting, boring, game sessions.
“We Can’t Roleplay in This System”
Because of the long combats, it became obvious that one of the pillars of the game was too large. As a result, the “roof” was uneven. Exploration had to be glossed over with Skill Challenges (which, not surprisingly, didn’t connect with the group). I had one player (my neighbor’s coworker) who really wanted story and roleplaying, but the other players would regularly be awful in the stereotypical ways.
Wanting to have sex with every female NPC encountered.
Threaten to kill any civilian who dared to get in their way.
Encourage PvP fights.
Send texts to each other during the game, pass notes, and ask me to step out of the room so they could take actions without the DM listening in. (I guess it didn’t matter to them that they needed me to actually adjudicate what they were doing.)
Eventually, I just threw up my hands. I didn’t want to force consequences. I didn’t want to argue about what I thought a proper game should look like. I didn’t even want to demand basic human respect as the DM. This was becoming the worst campaign I’ve ever run, and I just wanted it to end.
At least, it had an end point.
The Light at the End of the Tunnel
Half the group, 3 of the 6 players, are going back to (or starting) college in the Fall. I just needed to make it until the end of July or early August. I could wrap up the campaign in a satisfying way and take a long-deserved rest.
For the last few months of the campaign, I’d run a well-received published dungeon adventure, the Madness of Gardmore Abbey. After all, I had run it back in the day, and we had a blast. There wouldn’t be civilians to kill, NPCs to lust over, etc.
And – well, the adventure ended up devolving into a string of pointless combat encounters, a slog of tactical skirmishes. But as the deadline approached, I got to start cutting out the “chaff” and focusing on big fights: dragons, displacer beasts, beholders.
At last, the final session came. The two fights seemed appropriately challenging. Everybody left. I cracked open a beer.
I’m Done. D-U-N. Done.
I’m left feeling like KISS after their final, final Farewell Concert, except if Gene Simmons had to have a prosthetic tongue extension made and Paul Stanley lost control of his bowels on stage. Frustrated. Exhausted. Defeated. I’ve never worked so hard and struggled so much for mediocrity.
This isn’t what I want in this hobby. I don’t want 5 pages of character sheets and stacks of cards to tell players what they can do. I don’t want a system so complex the players don’t understand how characters are built – 8 months later. I don’t want 1.5 hour combats. I don’t want to sacrifice the other pillars to shore up a demanding combat pillar. I don’t want to have a character stunned and unable to act for 1.5 hours IRL (which literally happened).
I don’t want to feel that the game system’s demands take precedence over me also having a good time. No more huge groups. No more murder hobos or people who don’t put in a little effort into the game. No more people just there for their own amusement.
Even though I have room on my shelves, for symbolic purposes, I am boxing up my 4E collection and putting it in my attic. I hope to not look at it again for many years.
What Next?
Well, I’m taking a break.
After that, I have three remaining players: my wife, the story and roleplaying coworker, and my adult neighbor. They claim to want to try another game with just us. Maybe a rules-lite one-shot to see how to goes. I do want a chance at redemption after this 4E game.
From My Previous Post-Mortem (following SWADE Holler)…
“Do you ever know something is going to fail before trying it? Do you sometimes feel insulted that a group won't listen to your advice, as a seasoned GM?
Because the group is picking 4e D&D - with 8 players. Who already hated Gamma World. This is the kind of mistake that kills a gaming group, but no one will listen to me.
Be ready for that Post-Mortem in approximately 2 weeks.”
Here it is, 8 months later…
A Not-So Brief History of Me and 4th Edition
Like many others, I was chugging along happily enough in 3.x – well, actually a little more invested in it than the average DM. I was a published 3.x adventure designer and was in the deep in the process of writing a huge 200+ page mega adventure with a publisher lined up when the 4E announcement was made. And we saw it was different. And there was not going to be an SRD. The publisher went out of business. So, my project was ended, and I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder.
But this was still D&D, and I was going to play it. My existing 3.x group tried to switch over with the admittedly not excellent Keep on the Shadowfell, and that experiment with 4E ended after one Level 1-3 adventure. The group tried a handful of other systems (including Hollow Earth Expedition) before settling in with Pathfinder – and then dissolving altogether a few years later.
But towards the end of 4E’s (kinda short) lifecycle, I had a resurgence with it. A friend of mine owned a game store and asked me to come in and run D&D Encounters (with 4E). So every Wednesday night, I was running brief combat scenarios. It got so popular we had 3+ tables of it. And it was fun! We’d play a single fight for 1-1.5 hours, then walk down the strip mall to a sports bar, grab wings and beer.
D&D Encounters ended after around a year, transitioned to 5E, and our groups lost interest.
When 4E Growled Back
One afternoon, my wife was bored and asked about what came before she joined the hobby in 5E. I smiled and offered to run her some short combats with Old School Essentials, 2nd Edition AD&D, Pathfinder, and 4E. And she had a great time with the sample combat in 4E – starting off as a competent warrior, with interesting decisions, monsters that had thrilling moves, etc.
“Why isn’t everyone playing this?” she asked.
A year later, we went to GenCon and got into a 4E game, and she was hooked. It became her favorite edition of D&D (or any TTRPG). She longed for a group who would play it, but pretty much resigned to the fact it would only be at conventions.
About the Group and Selection of the Game
The group of players included my wife, our neighbor (who grew up with THAC0-era D&D) and his two college-aged sons, his co-worker (who also grew up with the same era of D&D, but prefers more story-focused games), and two teenage sisters also from our neighborhood. (Ultimately, the younger sister ended up leaving to start her own D&D group with friends from school – congrats for her! And the older sister has a job where she misses the first 1.5 hours of about every session.)
We started a group of 5E D&D about two years ago. During that time, we played through a combination of Saltmarsh and OAR’s Isle of Dread, and then a following campaign of Curse of Strahd. After Strahd we took a break from 5e with 4e Gamma World and Savage Worlds Holler, each for a few sessions.
After trying out so many games, my wife finally had talked them into trying 4E. My neighbor’s co-worker remembered liking the system “back in the day.” She and my neighbor even bought their own used copies of the Player Handbooks.
The Digital Elephant in the Room – No Tools
The first thing that instantly hampers the modern 4E experience compared to how we played it on those carefree Wednesday Encounters games 15+ years ago … D&D Insider is gone. Having access to the character builder, encounter builder, monster editing tools, Dungeon adventures, etc., was an invaluable resource.
Today, well, let’s just say I was able to get access to resources that kinda worked. But it was an effort and no one else had access to the character builder.
So we did a hodge-podge of paper character sheets, and I would update them on the Character Builder and print their selections and cards. And then I couldn’t put their characters in the software exactly the way it was written – sometimes because the player had made an error or other times because the Character Builder wasn’t set up with every option. And then the players would get upset, and I’d have to redesign the character and print it again. All told, every character was 5 pages of printing. We played for 8 levels. We ended up with 6 permanent characters. 6x8x5 = 240. I printed 240 pages of character sheets, not including the ones I had to re-do.
Being responsible for everyone’s characters in addition to running the game was an added level of effort that was necessary for the game to work, but it greatly wore me down.
Easy-Peasy D&D Encounters Squeezy?
My elevator pitch: “Let’s try a Level 1-3 D&D Encounters season. It’s a short foray to try out the system.” Encounters would be easy to run. After all, I ran them back in the day at the Game Store with zero prep with complete strangers.
So, I got the Lost Crown of Neverwinter – one that I remember my Wednesday group really enjoyed. Also, I got the Neverwinter Campaign Setting book, so I could expand, if necessary, since this was going to be a home campaign.
It lasted until the second combat encounter. “It was too difficult,” they argued. “It didn’t make sense that they had to wait until the end of a chapter to take a long rest,” they argued.
Well, if we were going to play this system, I’d have to create my own adventures in Neverwinter. How bad could it be?
Don’t “4E” with the Formula!
When half your party of 6 players is Strikers, all rushing to deal the most damage, you might have a problem.
When one of your 2 Leaders only heals herself because she’s taking so much damage, you might have a problem.
When no one wants to be a Defender, because “it’s boring,” you might have a problem.
When people save their big daily powers for the last round of combat and don’t get the full benefit of lingering effects, you might have a problem.
The group did a bad job of synergizing, of meeting 4E on its terms, and as a result – encounter building became almost impossible. I couldn’t throw any encounters even slightly above their XP total at them – even taking out the Leader who healed herself out of the equation.
When monsters would have special abilities like “when the creature takes Fire damage, it gets to shift 3 spaces,” the players would accuse me of lying and I would have to explain that monsters had special abilities in the game. This happened every encounter.
People wouldn’t pay attention during other players’ turns or would distract others with stories, memes on their phones, TikTok videos, etc. Because the game was boring. Because fights would take 1.5 hours. Because people weren’t paying attention. This created a feedback loop of exhausting, boring, game sessions.
“We Can’t Roleplay in This System”
Because of the long combats, it became obvious that one of the pillars of the game was too large. As a result, the “roof” was uneven. Exploration had to be glossed over with Skill Challenges (which, not surprisingly, didn’t connect with the group). I had one player (my neighbor’s coworker) who really wanted story and roleplaying, but the other players would regularly be awful in the stereotypical ways.
Wanting to have sex with every female NPC encountered.
Threaten to kill any civilian who dared to get in their way.
Encourage PvP fights.
Send texts to each other during the game, pass notes, and ask me to step out of the room so they could take actions without the DM listening in. (I guess it didn’t matter to them that they needed me to actually adjudicate what they were doing.)
Eventually, I just threw up my hands. I didn’t want to force consequences. I didn’t want to argue about what I thought a proper game should look like. I didn’t even want to demand basic human respect as the DM. This was becoming the worst campaign I’ve ever run, and I just wanted it to end.
At least, it had an end point.
The Light at the End of the Tunnel
Half the group, 3 of the 6 players, are going back to (or starting) college in the Fall. I just needed to make it until the end of July or early August. I could wrap up the campaign in a satisfying way and take a long-deserved rest.
For the last few months of the campaign, I’d run a well-received published dungeon adventure, the Madness of Gardmore Abbey. After all, I had run it back in the day, and we had a blast. There wouldn’t be civilians to kill, NPCs to lust over, etc.
And – well, the adventure ended up devolving into a string of pointless combat encounters, a slog of tactical skirmishes. But as the deadline approached, I got to start cutting out the “chaff” and focusing on big fights: dragons, displacer beasts, beholders.
At last, the final session came. The two fights seemed appropriately challenging. Everybody left. I cracked open a beer.
I’m Done. D-U-N. Done.
I’m left feeling like KISS after their final, final Farewell Concert, except if Gene Simmons had to have a prosthetic tongue extension made and Paul Stanley lost control of his bowels on stage. Frustrated. Exhausted. Defeated. I’ve never worked so hard and struggled so much for mediocrity.
This isn’t what I want in this hobby. I don’t want 5 pages of character sheets and stacks of cards to tell players what they can do. I don’t want a system so complex the players don’t understand how characters are built – 8 months later. I don’t want 1.5 hour combats. I don’t want to sacrifice the other pillars to shore up a demanding combat pillar. I don’t want to have a character stunned and unable to act for 1.5 hours IRL (which literally happened).
I don’t want to feel that the game system’s demands take precedence over me also having a good time. No more huge groups. No more murder hobos or people who don’t put in a little effort into the game. No more people just there for their own amusement.
Even though I have room on my shelves, for symbolic purposes, I am boxing up my 4E collection and putting it in my attic. I hope to not look at it again for many years.
What Next?
Well, I’m taking a break.
After that, I have three remaining players: my wife, the story and roleplaying coworker, and my adult neighbor. They claim to want to try another game with just us. Maybe a rules-lite one-shot to see how to goes. I do want a chance at redemption after this 4E game.
