Grapple/Odopi Question

[Sorrowdusk]

I have a question about grappling, really specifically though the Odopi and Odopi Elder from MM3 (p. 115-116).

* How many oppenents can you grapple at once? I know the SRD says up to 4 enemies can grapple a single target (more less based on sixe), but what about the other way around?

The Odopi Elder for example is a gargantuan monster. It has ONE claw attack, but its Whirlwind Attack Feat lets it make 1 roll against all targets within his reach. He has improved grab that goes off when he hits with his claw attack sooo....he should be able to roll his +41 Grapple (actually errata'd to +45) against EVERYTHING he hits?

And if he wins grapple checks, how many enemies can he grab? With other creatures they may have say, multiple tentacles or so, and the # is obviously equal to the number of limbs they have I'd say, but it doesnt say-the Odopi is a poor man's hecatonchires thats made of arms (at least if you're trying to use a Gate Spell, which is what I intend to do).

The SRD says if you are grappling multiple opponents, you can only make 1 opposed check and choose which one. Does this mean he can only wrestle 1 monster or PC at a time? Does it make a difference if he opts to use the Hold action (check at -20)?

Also with his Dimension Door @ Clvl 18th he can poof up to 1120ft. Is it then a valid tactic, to grab a bunch of guys, DimDoor, and THEN from 1000ft up (or it can just be the minumum 200) throw them into the ground or drop with them for maximum 20d6 fall damage? He has a fat 400hp and DR so he should be ok. He can also opt to buff himself with his Feather Fall before doing it.

 

[Pergentile]

It is a debatable subject. It really depends how the DM runs grappling.

Normally:
Once you are grappling, you are considered grappled, and no longer threaten space around you, take full round actions, etc. and your options for actions are fairly limited. You can try to escape the grapple, pin, deal damage etc. but normally you are restricted to actions revolving around grappling. You can only grapple one enemy at a time. Once you are grappled, you cannot attempt to grapple someone other than the people who are grappling you.

Advanced Grappling:
One can choose to take a -20 penalty to ones opposed grapple checks against the person one is grappling, which allows one to Grapple an enemy, without being considered "grappled", while your enemy is. This means you threaten space around you as normal, make AoO's, get to keep your Dex modifier for your AC, etc.
For example, a Marilith can hit with its tail attack, choose to take -20 on the free grapple attempt, then, if it wins, proceed to hit someone else with a tail attack, etc.

The Debatable Bits:
Normally, to grapple an enemy, even when not grappled yourself (by taking a -20 penalty), one must use an Iterative attack. This goes off of your Base Attack Bonus. For example, a person with a BAB of +11, has three attacks; one at +11, one at +6 and one at +1. This means that same person with a BAB of +11 could grapple three opponents if taking the -20 penalty for all of them. In ones turn, to maintain the grapple, one must use at least one attack action to maintain the grapple. Many DM's, when using a Giant Octopus against the party, tend to overlook this restriction though, to make things more interesting. DM's tend to allow an eight legged Giant Octopus to grapple eight opponents (one for each limb), even though the Octopus' BAB is only high enough to grapple three opponents iirc. In the end, it is up to the DM how he wants to restrict grappling, as it is primarily a Monster-used combat maneuver, since it is affected greatly by size.

For your specific monster, it would be able to grapple three opponents at -20, since it has a BAB of +15, meaning three attacks. The elder Odopi would be able to grapple five, since its BAB is +22 (+22/+17/+12/+7/+2). If you are the DM however, you can allow these monsters to grapple as many opponents as it can reach, since it is logical, and there is precedence for it to be able to do so. I personally would make a cap for grappling based on size. Something Gargantuan would be able to grapple 16 medium sized enemies, since it's space is 4x4 (16 squares) logically. Remember that anything with the Grab (Ex) ability pulls an enemy into its space when it grapples, it does not move into the enemies space as normal.

 

[KiloGex]

This is one of the things that DMs need to realize: Not everything is black and white in the DMG and sometimes, you need to interpret the rules to your own liking. In other words; if you think something should be able to occur and it's not too disadvantageous to the players, then it should happen.

 

[Jimlock]

Why do i get the feeling that resolving grapple properly is as difficult as getting a masters degree in Astro-physics?

 

[Sorrowdusk]

For your specific monster, it would be able to grapple three opponents at -20, since it has a BAB of +15, meaning three attacks. The elder Odopi would be able to grapple five, since its BAB is +22 (+22/+17/+12/+7/+2). If you are the DM however, you can allow these monsters to grapple as many opponents as it can reach, since it is logical, and there is precedence for it to be able to do so. I personally would make a cap for grappling based on size. Something Gargantuan would be able to grapple 16 medium sized enemies, since it's space is 4x4 (16 squares) logically. Remember that anything with the Grab (Ex) ability pulls an enemy into its space when it grapples, it does not move into the enemies space as normal.

Thats one thing I was wondering about too. I know that he ought to have iteratives...but I'm wondering why they left only 1 attack even in his full attack (even though yes, his thing would seem to be whirlwind attacking). There was errata to the book, and even to the creature but that didnt change.

 

[Jimlock]

Thats one thing I was wondering about too. I know that he ought to have iteratives...but I'm wondering why they left only 1 attack even in his full attack (even though yes, his thing would seem to be whirlwind attacking). There was errata to the book, and even to the creature but that didnt change.

Rules Comp. p60

If you can make multiple attacks due to a high base attack bonus, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times by making a full attack. If you suc- ceed in starting the grapple and have remaining attacks, you can use those attacks to perform other maneuvers allowed in a grapple (see Grappling Results).


EDIT: Rules Comp. is a great reference for all those complicated combat maneuvers...grapple itself covers two pages.

 

[frankthedm]

Jimlock, that passage is "multiple attacks due to a high base attack bonus," which is not the case for this situation

The Odopi Elder for example is a gargantuan monster. It has ONE claw attack, but its Whirlwind Attack Feat lets it make 1 roll against all targets within his reach. He has improved grab that goes off when he hits with his claw attack sooo....he should be able to roll his +41 Grapple (actually errata'd to +45) against EVERYTHING he hits?

Much simpler than some are making it out.

• Odopi launches whirlwind,
• Hits first foe
• Successfully grapples
• Loses threatened area, loses remaining whirlwind attacks.

It is better off taking the "or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents."

The creature's description should be more than enough for the DM to understand the odopi has enough limbs to hold as many opponents as it can get a hold on.

• Odopi launches whirlwind,
• Hits first foe
• Takes the -20 to grapple and still successfully grapples
• Hits next foe
• Takes the -20 to grapple and still successfully grapples
• Hits next foe
• Takes the -20 to grapple and still successfully grapples
• Hits next foe
• Takes the -20 to grapple and still successfully grapples
• Repeat as needed

Next round since it is not grappled, it can whirlwind again since it is not yet considered grappled. Or Trample those who are trying to get away.

The DM should carefully considered whether or not to allow the Rules Compedium's reinterpretations on grapple since it actually changes the way improved grab works. Notably it seems to remove the last sentence of improved grab, which was vitally important in keeping Improved Grabbers mobile. "It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight. "

Also with his Dimension Door

Does not normally take the unwilling with.

 

[Pergentile]

Frank, it was my believe that Grapple attempts could only be made with Iterative attacks, not bonus attacks from something like Flurry of Blows or Whirlwind. Could you please quote where it says the contrary? I would LOVE it if I am incorrect in this belief.

If it whirlwind-ed and grappled 20 opponents, it would have to drop most of them the next round, because it would not have the necessary number of actions to maintain the grapple on all of them (at least a single grapple check made with an iterative).

Also, a grapple must be made with a touch attack, so all of the (lets just say 20) whirlwind attacks would become touch attacks...? If it were to not have the Grab (Ex) ability, it would then provoke (20) AoO's?!

 

[frankthedm]

Frank, it was my believe that Grapple attempts could only be made with Iterative attacks, not bonus attacks from something like Flurry of Blows or Whirlwind. Could you please quote where it says the contrary? I would LOVE it if I am incorrect in this belief.

Well, if you chose to read the parentheses section as a requirement, rather than a reminder to those using BAB based attacks, that is your choice. I read that part as just a reminder BAB based attacks keep dropping in bonus.

"If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses)."

Note the wording of "Starting a Grapple" vs. "If You’re Grappling". You are on the right track that once you are grappled, the actions you can take are limited to your BAB.

If it whirlwind-ed and grappled 20 opponents, it would have to drop most of them the next round, because it would not have the necessary number of actions to maintain the grapple on all of them (at least a single grapple check made with an iterative).

...Checks forum... I know Pathfinder has that sort of limitation on grappling, in d20 maintaining a grapple has no such requirement unless rules compendium pulled something out of its corn chute. Maintaining a PIN, does though since it only lasts for one round. otherwise d20 only has this "Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)" Note that improved grab lets the grabber pull the victim into it's space instead.

Also, a grapple must be made with a touch attack, so all of the (lets just say 20) whirlwind attacks would become touch attacks...? If it were to not have the Grab (Ex) ability, it would then provoke (20) AoO's?!

Without Improved grab, the situation could never occur. Ignoring the likelihood of at least a few of those AoOs hitting (stopping that grapple attempt), there are three brick walls that still stop this.

1. you HAVE to enter and stay in someone's space to maintain grapple them in d20. [ improved Grab instead changes that to the victim is pulled into the grabber's space ] .
2. that taking -20 is an option provided by improved grab [though IIRC the Rules Compendium judicially legislated it was an option for all grapplers]
3. you would need a lot of limbs to pull that off.

 

[nijineko]

don't forget the feat that reduces the penalties for grappling multiple foes, in draconomicon, iirc.