Does hack-n-slashing desensitize us to violence?

[Starfox]

Someone with a deep revulsion toward violence will not in the first place find depiction of violence in any form entertaining.
[...]
If an adult spends many hours on fetishisation of violence, or on racist or sexist propaganda, then it is most probably an expression of views already entrenched.

Agree with this. It is not that violent games fosters violence; it is that people who are attracted to violence like it in games as well as in the real world, while people who abhor violence shy away from it in games as well as in the real world. This means there is a connection between how violent people are and how much they like violence in games. But there is NO causality; it is not gaming that makes us violent. And for most people, who neither abhor nor particularly enjoy violence, there is no connection at all. A person can like or dislike violent games and it doesn't indicate anything about their violent tendencies.

What games do is that they provide a healthy and harmless channel for violent impulses; instead of going out on the town to harass little old ladies, you enter a dungeon and kill orcs. We all have violent impulses, especially during puberty. Most cultures have ritualized ways of channeling this violence in positive ways (aka sports). RPGs is a way for us nerds to do the same.

A major reason to play fantasy RPGs over historical ones is that you can depict bigotry, hatred, and whole species being evil (like orcs in some worlds) without referring to real-world conflicts. We can deal with these issues in a detached way that does not build prejudice against anyone in the real world. And by bringing these subjects up in a detached way, there is a chance for us to examine the behavior of our characters and the mores of the game world in a detached, neutral way. This can allow us to see and understand unpleasant parts of our own culture and of human nature in new ways. Only this should not be overdone - RPGs are entertainment, not proselytizing or moral education.

 

[jbear]

Sorry to skip the first 2 pgs as I'm pressed for time and I'm sure it's an intersting topic. but just from reading the title, the first thing that came to my mind was:

Watching the News desensitizes me to violence.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Watching the News desensitizes me to violence.

I find it has the opposite effect on me. Just like everytime I see a real life car accident or see real serious injuries in an emergency room, I find it increases my empathy and concern rather than decreases it.

 

[Tuft]

Agree with this. It is not that violent games fosters violence; it is that people who are attracted to violence like it in games as well as in the real world, while people who abhor violence shy away from it in games as well as in the real world. This means there is a connection between how violent people are and how much they like violence in games. But there is NO causality; it is not gaming that makes us violent. And for most people, who neither abhor nor particularly enjoy violence, there is no connection at all. A person can like or dislike violent games and it doesn't indicate anything about their violent tendencies.

What games do is that they provide a healthy and harmless channel for violent impulses; instead of going out on the town to harass little old ladies, you enter a dungeon and kill orcs. We all have violent impulses, especially during puberty. Most cultures have ritualized ways of channeling this violence in positive ways (aka sports). RPGs is a way for us nerds to do the same.

A major reason to play fantasy RPGs over historical ones is that you can depict bigotry, hatred, and whole species being evil (like orcs in some worlds) without referring to real-world conflicts. We can deal with these issues in a detached way that does not build prejudice against anyone in the real world. And by bringing these subjects up in a detached way, there is a chance for us to examine the behavior of our characters and the mores of the game world in a detached, neutral way. This can allow us to see and understand unpleasant parts of our own culture and of human nature in new ways. Only this should not be overdone - RPGs are entertainment, not proselytizing or moral education.

Note that there are many reasons that you can be attracted to various RPGs beside violence. You can be attracted to other elements of the various genres, such as the being able to use magic, encountering fantastic milieus, interacting with fantastic creatures, or playing fantastic races.

Not everybody enjoys making combat monsters, but actually do enjoy "traipsing through fairy rings and meeting the wee people".

 

[Tuft]

I find it has the opposite effect on me. Just like everytime I see a real life car accident or see real serious injuries in an emergency room, I find it increases my empathy and concern rather than decreases it.

True.

In the Shadowrun game I played in for many years, guards, watchmen and policemen were mowed down by the hundreds.

But looking back now on the grittiness, food shortages and general urban decay of the setting, it's hard not to see those as poor slobs in a lousy job just trying to feed the family.

Nowaday it definitely makes it more unpleasant to see e.g James Bond movie scenes where the Hero cuts through dozens of henchmen without batting an eye.

What really made the point were MMO grindfests, where opponent upon opponent upon opponent died for a fraction of a percents chance of a somewhat decent drop. Made me feel sick after a time.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Note that there are many reasons that you can be attracted to various RPGs beside violence. You can be attracted to other elements of the various genres, such as the being able to use magic, encountering fantastic milieus, interacting with fantastic creatures, or playing fantastic races.

Not everybody enjoys making combat monsters, but actually do enjoy "traipsing through fairy rings and meeting the wee people".

When I was a kid, my father placed a ban on toy guns, GI Joe Figures (and other "militant" toys), violent films etc. Yet without these things I still found a way to simulate violent play. And I still ended up with a serious interest in boxing (which I managed to watch late at night). To this day the old Arnold films are some of my favorites (and most of the violence in those is pretty tongue in cheek). Sometimes I think we assume media has a lot more power over us than it really does. Not saying films, TV, books, etc have no influence. But I think there is also something more innate or more cultural at work.

Honestly I am a lot less worried about PCs mowing down orcs, or Rambo cutting down soldiers, than I am about films that really dwell on the violence and suffering of the victim. And even in those cases I don't think it is as much about the viewer being turned into a psycho, as much as it is about the psycho getting ideas and fueling his or her fantasies.

 

[Bedrockgames]

True.

In the Shadowrun game I played in for many years, guards, watchmen and policemen were mowed down by the hundreds.

But looking back now on the grittiness, food shortages and general urban decay of the setting, it's hard not to see those as poor slobs in a lousy job just trying to feed the family.

Nowaday it definitely makes it more unpleasant to see e.g James Bond movie scenes where the Hero cuts through dozens of henchmen without batting an eye.

What really made the point were MMO grindfests, where opponent upon opponent upon opponent died for a fraction of a percents chance of a somewhat decent drop. Made me feel sick after a time.

I have been in and out of the hospital many times this year. And I've seen a lot of really injured people in that time (I think I've even seen a few die or who had died--but I am not really sure). I'd say in the last few months I am much more aware when I see a car accident or hear a story in the news of how much pain the victims go through because I have a pretty detailed point of reference now. Definitely walking around with a greater sense of how fragile people are. And now when I see someone seriously injured or sick at the emergency room, it bothers me more rather than less.

 

[mxyzplk]

Geek Related - Your PCs Are Murderous Cretins

Mxyzplk, no hard feelings. I disagree with your position on this particular issue, but with that said I still enjoy reading your blog.

I should also mention that I like the idea of running a campaign with a more nuanced sense of morality and legality than is usually portrayed, which is what the majority of this blog post deals with. I just don't agree with the assertion that fantasy violence at all shapes the mindset of the players.

Hey, no problem man, I knew it was contentious when I posted it in the first place.

And easily misunderstood. I know people are sensitive about this, and any discussion of possible down sides of RPGs and specific elements of gaming makes everyone figure the Pat Pulling/Tipper Gore/Jack Thompson brigade must be after them. That's not me; I've played more RPGs that most other people and am not a communist hippie or Fundamentalist fascist whatever else people suspect whenever anyone has any reservations about ethics.

Clearly my point is not as simplistic as "violence in RPGs causes violence." There's many other factors, and people respond differently, and blah blah blah. But cognitive training works. We all accept it happily when it's good things. I've read many a biography where someone gratefully attributes their character traits to, in part, their participation in team sports, etc. Similarly I think we all happily reflect on the teamwork, inventiveness, ability to game rules systems, etc. we get out of our RPG hobby. Sure, moral development becomes more self-actualizing when you're an adult, but it still works. We were all pleased by the X-Files episode where a guy said “I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning anything about courage.” It's completely illogical to take the good and not the bad.

So my only point on this, and it's a side point in my original article, but is that the things we train ourselves in as part of our gaming do become part of us. And if you are inculcating a simplistic morality where it's OK to kill or marginalize other races or belief systems, then you just might be a little more likely to buy into some of the unfortunate things that work that way in the real world. It's not like the news media hasn't degenerated into this, that we're not seeing things related to our own current events, where clearly this has become a dominant mode of thinking. Not caused by RPGs and video games and TV, certainly, but is that what we should be echo-chambering ourselves with? At a bare minimum we need to be cognizant of it, and if we are knowingly practicing in-game unethical behavior, to keep an extra guard against it seeping into our real-world thinking.

 

[S'mon]

We were all pleased by the X-Files episode where a guy said “I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons without learning anything about courage.”

Uhm, sorry to tell you this but I think the scriptwriters were joking...

 

[Doug McCrae]

Does violent role-playing shape how we think and react to actual violence?

Yes, a bit. It would be bizarre if we weren't influenced by an activity on which we spend so much time. But that doesn't mean we should stop playing rpgs. I think the good, which is mostly the pleasure we derive from the activity, outweighs the bad.