Grapple/Odopi Question

[Pergentile]

In order to make a melee touch attack to grapple an opponent, an iterative is required.
One could not grapple using a Flurry of Blows or some other special attack.
Improved Grab (Ex) alters this slightly. It allows one a free grapple attempt when hitting with a specific type of attack, regardless of how many times one hits with that attack.
When Whirlwind Attack (the feat) is considered, it is giving up its normal attack to make a whirlwind attack. Although it is indeed using its claws, it does not receive the benefit of the Improved Grab since it is not making a "Claw Attack", but rather "An attack with its claws". The difference might be hard to understand, but it is indeed there.
So an Odopi could NOT grapple as part of the whirlwind attack, and hence, could not grapple very many opponents, if following RAW.
Like I said earlier though, it is logical for a DM to change things in certain circumstances, so the subject becomes debatable.

That is where I think we are on different pages Frank.
Thanks for correcting me about needing to use an Iterative to maintain a grapple. Once one is grappled, that does not change on its own. A grapple does not need to be actively maintained.

 

[frankthedm]

When Whirlwind Attack (the feat) is considered, it is giving up its normal attack to make a whirlwind attack. Although it is indeed using its claws, it does not receive the benefit of the Improved Grab since it is not making a "Claw Attack", but rather "An attack with its claws". The difference might be hard to understand, but it is indeed there.

I do think you are reading something into whirlwind attack that isn't there. If it attacks with its claw in the whirlwind attack, then it is the claw attack which would trigger improved grab.

Now if you want to make the argument that an "Improved Grab" attempt should be treated as a "bonus or extra attack" which Whirlwind Attack normally negates, I could understand that point of view.

Whirlwind Attack [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit
When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
Special

A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Grab is a powerful and distressingly common monster ability, and I think at least part of the trouble people have understanding it that they are thinking "It can't be that good, I must have misread it."

 

[Pergentile]

"give up your regular attacks"

Where does it say that the melee attack made against each opponent in reach is a "Claw attack" or considered to be the original sacrificed regular attacks where it matters? It is simply a "Melee Attack", not a "Melee Claw Attack".
Of course one would use the weapon one has, in this case a claw, but that does not mean that the whirlwind attack qualifies for anything that that specific attack type qualifies for. This interpretation is only founded more strongly by the wording of the feat.
It is not hitting with its Claw Attack. It is hitting with its Whirlwind Attack, using its claw. The two attacks are very much individual and different then each other. Improved Grab never comes into the picture.

I don't think I am reading what isn't there; I think you are.
My English keeps me from gaining more meaning from a sentence then the absolute bare minimum. This might mean I am wrong in the matter, but I would still like a quote that justifies your stance other than your own logic to be sure, as I am fairly stubborn.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

@Pergentile

"A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows." -Pathfinder monk at least can use disarm, sunder, and trip (which admittedly are different), but I have played under some DMs which have allowed Flurry-Grapple. (Under the reasoning "it doesnt say you cant")

In any case, I am still personally boggled as to why they didnt include iteratives in its full attack, as by its BAB it ought to get them. (Notable, it does get iterative ranged, but not melee). Its been errata'd with the book, but the only thing thats changed was its Grapple modifier by a few points. I'm also just wondering if there was any special reason it would be "wrong" to allow it iteratives based on its BAB that arent in the block. I mean what if it comes down to him having only a Single Enemy to fight? Still only gets one attack per round (except ranged)?

Otherwise, the way Frank explained things, it seems pretty sound.

 

[Greenfield]

One note: The original post asked about grappling one or more people and doing a D-Door straight up.

Teleport and/or Dimension Door allows someone to take along *willing* passengers. Unless the people in the Grapple were willing to go along for the ride, they get left behind.

As for the grapple itself: There are a lot of rules that cover this from one angle or another. We can question whether the monster can interrupt its whirlwind attack sequence to grapple someone, we can ask about iterative attacks from BAB v Multiattack from many arms, like the Marilith, and we can argue about whether they suffer -20 on Grapple to try and grab someone else.

My own thought regarding the particular monster: To grab someone in its claw it has to open that claw. To hold someone in a grapple with that claw it has to keep the claw closed.

The two seem like mutually exclusive concepts. I honestly don't see how it could grab someone in that claw without releasing whoever is already in it.

The Marilith mentioned can grapple with her tail. Once she's done that her tail is occupied. She may decided to take the -20 on Grapple to do other things (like attack with her 6 arms), but I don't see how she could do anything else with her tail except constrict someone already in her grasp.

The master grappling machine has to be the Kraken though. 6 arms with 30 foot reach, 2 tentacles with 60 ft reach, and Improved Grab at +44. It can grab at long range (60 feet) then pass its victim back to a shorter arm so as to free up the longer one. Most consider it a death sentence to be grabbed, since at +44 it's pretty much an unbreakable grasp. But when you consider the -20 penalty for it to hold one PC while doing just about anything else, it stops being impossible, and starts to resemble the CR 12 monster it's listed as.

So a question for the Kraken: Is it -20 per grapple, or just -20 total? That is, can it in fact grapple 8 different characters at an effective +24, or is it 1 at +44, 2 at +24, 3 at +4, 4 at -16, etc?

 

[Pergentile]

An Odopi is a gargantuan monster made from hundreds of clawed arms... it seems realistic that it could grapple dozens of enemies, yes?
A Marilith is also a Huge monster, with a tail that is... long enough to could around several medium enemies several times.

The penalty of -20 applies once to each enemy one is grappling without being grappled... RAW.

 

[frankthedm]

In any case, I am still personally boggled as to why they didn't include iteratives in its full attack, as by its BAB it ought to get them. (Notable, it does get iterative ranged, but not melee). Its been errata'd with the book, but the only thing that's changed was its Grapple modifier by a few points. I'm also just wondering if there was any special reason it would be "wrong" to allow it iterative based on its BAB that aren't in the block. I mean what if it comes down to him having only a Single Enemy to fight? Still only gets one attack per round (except ranged)?

Natural weapons are divorced from normal weapons by a few rules, this being the major one.

Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.

The Odopi only getting that one attack against the the lone foe is a part of its design. IMHO it was made to attack the party as a whole rather than to play "Let's kill the guy who though he could Tank in high level D&D!". A nice gesture, but killing one victim at a time is MUCH more effective in D&D and one monster won't change the game's dynamic.

Who else remembers that first time players dishearteningly realized Big monsters didn't have to spread their attacks among the party in 3E? No more facing, no more out maneuvering natural attacks. And it's a delightful double whammy since they probably ate an AoO to get up to the critter in the first place. Who else remember their PC eating that AoO Bite followed up with the spinning Dragon fu combo of Huge [or bigger] bite, claw, claw, wing, wing & tail to the medium face?

 

[Sorrowdusk]

An Odopi is a gargantuan monster made from hundreds of clawed arms... it seems realistic that it could grapple dozens of enemies, yes?
A Marilith is also a Huge monster, with a tail that is... long enough to could around several medium enemies several times.

The penalty of -20 applies once to each enemy one is grappling without being grappled... RAW.

You may have a point (albeit Marilith is large not huge, Myrmixicus is though.)