Tomb of Horrors - example of many, or one of a kind?

[ExploderWizard]

And then there was the plane-traveling group of Arduin characters,

What were you expecting? As experienced Arduin adventurers they probably had nary a buttock among them, how were they supposed to walk?

 

[the Jester]

...I'm not convinced that the Tomb can be solved through player skill alone. Has the topic been addressed around here before?

Yes, I recall one post about a newbie gamer who had never played an rpg before with a first level pc making it to the end, grabbing some loot and fleeing for his life.

I ran Return to the Tomb of Horrors as part of my regular campaign, kind of ambushing the players with it. They not only made it through (and RttToh includes the original as a minor part of it), they did so without any truly irretrievable losses.

So I absolutely maintain that it's fair and ultimately possible to defeat. But it isn't easy, it requires creative thinking and most players (especially nowadays, with so few really challenging puzzles and tricks in modern adventures) don't have what it takes to get a pc through it intact.

 

[the Jester]

That's nice for one single situation. But how many auguries have you prepared that day? How many choices are there to be made in that dungeon? Do you know that this is one you should use your precious resource on before someone's dead?

There's no time limit on Tomb of Horrors, and pcs that keep moving forward without appropriate resources deserve what they get.

If they've seen many traps and tricks but no monsters, they're fools if they don't clue in to the fact that "appropriate resources" are not hit points.

 

[Bullgrit]

Yet then again: why would player-characters want to search a bunch of sacks of moldy grain and flour? Let alone searching all of them? Is there any indication of something to gain by doing so? No.

This is something that makes discussing classic D&D so difficult.

There're a bunch of sacks full of something in the corner of the room. What's in them? You don't know until you check them.

If you check the sacks: It's a trap, and your PC dies! Ha! You shouldn't have bothered them. Old school Players were wise and knew not to mess with stuff unnecessarily.

If you don't check the sacks: There was treasure hidden in them, and you didn't get it! Ha! You should have thought to check them. Old school Players were wise and knew to investigate everything.

If you carefully check them using a 10' pole, or a summoned creature: They're just sacks of moldy grain and flour. Ha! You wasted time and magic messing with just some old bags, and got a wondering monster check and now have fewer spells for the boss encounter in the next area. Old school Players were wise and knew to conserve their time and resources for truly important things.

Bullgrit

 

[Bullgrit]

If they've seen many traps and tricks but no monsters, they're fools if they don't clue in to the fact that "appropriate resources" are not hit points.

And then they come to an area where they have to fight a bunch of terrible monsters! Ha! You fell for the pattern. Old school Players were wise and knew not to assume the next part of the dungeon will be exactly like the previous part of the dungeon. Old school Players always stayed properly prepared for diverse obstacles.

Bullgrit

 

[Nagol]

And then they come to an area where they have to fight a bunch of terrible monsters! Ha! You fell for the pattern. Old school Players were wise and knew not to assume the next part of the dungeon will be exactly like the previous part of the dungeon. Old school Players always stayed properly prepared for diverse obstacles.

Bullgrit

No. If they're keeping the appropriate resources up, their hp are full (as is their combat abilities) because those aren't being consumed as they aren't the limiting factors.

 

[Celebrim]

There's no time limit on Tomb of Horrors...

This is one of the first things that a party playing Tomb of Horrors should realize. They generally have no reason to keep pressing on until they are ready to do so.

This is one of several reasons why 'C1: The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan' is probably more lethal and more challenging than 'Tomb of Horrors'. In C1, you are on a strict environmentally enforced time limit. You can't wait anything out or recover lost resources once they are spent. In ToH, other than the fact that its not very stylish, why not wait? Also in C1, if you play it with the suggested party of 3 characters, you have very very few resources to spare and even if you play very well, you still might have enough bad luck that you'll lose anyway.

Similarly, 'I6: Ravenloft' is probably more of a meat grinder than ToH because Strahd is a very intelligent and proactive foe with an array of abilities that let him wear down PC's over time much faster than they can recover. Failures usually aren't immediately lethal in I6, but its very easy to get yourself in a death spiral from which its impossible to recover.

 

[ExploderWizard]

This is something that makes discussing classic D&D so difficult.

There're a bunch of sacks full of something in the corner of the room. What's in them? You don't know until you check them.

If you check the sacks: It's a trap, and your PC dies! Ha! You shouldn't have bothered them. Old school Players were wise and knew not to mess with stuff unnecessarily.

If you don't check the sacks: There was treasure hidden in them, and you didn't get it! Ha! You should have thought to check them. Old school Players were wise and knew to investigate everything.

If you carefully check them using a 10' pole, or a summoned creature: They're just sacks of moldy grain and flour. Ha! You wasted time and magic messing with just some old bags, and got a wondering monster check and now have fewer spells for the boss encounter in the next area. Old school Players were wise and knew to conserve their time and resources for truly important things.

Bullgrit

Whats so difficult? The adventurers life is dangerous and deadly yet rewarding to those clever and lucky enough to survive.

Sometimes there might be a deadly trap AND a great treasure. Risk vs reward is the name of the game.

The only time wasted is the time spent not having fun. Sometimes leaving some possible treasure behind is good risk management and sometimes not. Enjoy the experience of playing and you are doing it right.

 

[Bullgrit]

Area 21 – the room is 30’x30’; the secret door that leads to the rest of the dungeon is behind the tapestry.

21. THE AGITATED CHAMBER: <snip some description by Bullgrit> Only the rather plain tapestries hanging upon the east and west walls appear to have been spared a rough looting. <snip> The weight of the players upon the balanced floor will have set a mechanism into motion, and each round they remain in the place, a d6 must be rolled. Any odd number resulting from a roll means that on the next turn the floor of the room will jump and buck up and down violently. Each player must be rolled for, with a 2 in 6 chance to fall and sustain 1 hit point of damage from abrasions and contusions.

The tapestries, which appear to feature weed-grown rocks and green and golden tan scenes of undersea life, are specially anti-magic treated creations of green slime and brown mold. If they are torn, they instantly turn into green slime and cover each and every player character/character standing before them, i.e. each covers a 20' long by 10' deep area of floor when it falls. Covered characters are turned to green slime and gone, with no recourse possible due to the amount of slime. Note that the tapestries can be handled normally, just not yanked so as to tear them (and they are well affixed at the top); however, if any character is holding one when the room becomes agitated, it is 75% probable that the jerking motion will tear the thing. If these hangings are subjected to burning they instantly turn to brown mold and drain 4-32 (4d8) h.p. of heat from all characters within 5' of the mold (and it gets worse from there . . .). Note the secret door behind the tapestry on the west wall.

If the PCs don't mess with the tapestries -- Ha! They get stymied and can't move on to explore the rest of the tomb.

If the PCs mess with the tapestries -- Ha! They can all die.

It's a tapestry. Ha! It's green slime!

It's a tapestry. Ha! It's brown mold!

It's a tapestry. Ha! It's concealing a secret door!

Bullgrit

 

[Bullgrit]

Very first area of the tomb complex (there are three "entrances" to the tomb) -- a 20' wide, 30' long tunnel ending at false double doors:

1. FALSE ENTRANCE TUNNEL: The corridor is of plain stone, roughly worked, and is dark and full of cobwebs. The roof 20' overhead is obscured by these hanging strands, so casual observation will not reveal that it is composed of badly fitting stones. Daylight will be sufficient to reveal that there is a pair of oaken doors at the end of the passageway. If the roof is prodded with any force, or if the doors are opened, the roof of the tunnel will collapse and inflict 5-50 (5d10) hit points of damage upon each character inside of it, with no saving throw. The doors open outwards by great iron ring pulls. The cobwebs must be burned away to be able to inspect the tunnel ceiling.

Bullgrit