D&D 3E/3.5 A friendly rule-challenge: 3.5 Flying

[Jon_Dahl]

This thread is about understanding how non-magical flying works in D&D 3.5. Precisely this is about the challenges of 3D-movement in D&D 3.5.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm very bad with maths and physics. I really suck. I'm sure many people here have easy time with 3D-movement, but I certainly don't.

Let's start somewhere. Let's start with an example.

Hippogriff fights a person (human) who is standing on the ground. Let's agree that the the ground is plains, with no obstacles and the person doesn't move and he/she simply reacts to hippogriff. The starting distance is whatever you want. Hippogriff doesn't want to touch the ground and uses only dive-attacks. Explain me round-to-round what happens. It's not necessary to mention what the person does, although AoOs are nice to mention.

Let me give it a try.
First we need to imagine eight 5-ft squares around the person (look at your number pad, the person is 5). Now this is easy. Above these squares are another eight 5-ft squares. Above the person is one 5-ft square. These 17 squares around and above the person are the squares that are within reach for the hippogriff and the person.

Ok.
First... the hippogriff makes a dive (effectively charge). It descends 10 ft and moves 50 ft forward, moving to an adjacent square 5 ft above the person (I hope you got it). Dive => Claw attack (double-damage). End of round.
Next round: Hippogriff must fly lever for 5 ft, so it enters the square above the person (attracting AoO). After this it uses rest of its 195 ft movement to turn 180 degrees (45 degrees per 5 ft of movement) and also ascends 10 ft, with the expense of 20 ft of movement (double cost). It ends the round with keeping 50 ft distance and 10 ft altitude from its target. End of round.
Next round: Everything repeats all over again.

P.S. Please don't kill me. I just want to "get flying", ok?

 

[Pergentile]

Flying is one of the things that can have such an extreme benefit early on that it is hindered at such a point. It requires the synergy from feats etc. for one to get full benefit, this keeps lower level characters from abusing land-locked enemies (which are the most common, especially at low levels).

So for something like a Huppogriff, if it were to be an aerial-combatant, it would have the feats for dive attack (move before and after the attack, and not provoke AoO's), as well as one of half-a-dozen feats to improve flight.

When something has a fly speed with bad maneuverability, it is generally not intended to use such flight in combat, but only to be able to travel efficiently, and reach places where it can take advantage of range (Dragons for example).

 

[Greenfield]

Your analysis seems sound. A flying creature who decides to make a diving attack, but doesn't have Fly-by capacity, will indeed draw attacks of opportunity.

Creatures like that should look at it more like a flying "pounce", and commit to the melee.

So, what part of aerial combat don't you get?

 

[airwalkrr]

Your explanation seems to be pretty much exactly the way I would put it. Like Greenfield, I tend to believe that creatures with poor maneuverability generally shouldn't fly around in combat because it is so cumbersome. Creatures with reach can sometimes get away with it anyway since they can flyby without provoking attacks of opportunity. But it is much easier if you simply eschew it for monsters after the first dive unless the creature has good maneuverability or better.

 

[Jon_Dahl]

Before I concede to the "one-dive-then-stand-up 'n fight"-point given in previous posts (which is a very viable option!) let me try again:

First round: Dive (hippogriff moves 50 ft and descends 10 ft). Claw attack => double damage. At the end of the round hippogriff is 5 ft above the target in an adjacent square. Hippogriff uses Wingover to turn 180 degrees as a free action. End of round.
Next round: Hippogriff uses Withdraw-action to move double speed directly away from its target (including 5 ft lever + 10 ft ascending + 180 degree turn). It ends the round keeping 50 ft distance and 10 ft altitude from its target.
Next round: Everything starts all over again.

So hopefully I have concluded how a hippogriff can charge a "grounded" enemy round-to-round without attracting AoOs.

 

[Greenfield]

Oh, absolutely correct. That works. The hippogriff gets to do a double damage charge attack every other round, with or without the wingover. Total damage isn't changed by the maneuver.

The loser in that exchange is the hippogriff, by the way. He gets his single strike, while the opponent gets to let loose with a full round attack during the adjacent pause. Advantage: Standing opponent.

A mounted rider suffers the same problem when charging a foe. D&D has no "moving target" modifiers for swinging at a passing opponent or shooting at a swift runner or flier. At least, not that I know of.

 

[kitcik]

The loser in that exchange is the hippogriff, by the way. He gets his single strike, while the opponent gets to let loose with a full round attack during the adjacent pause. Advantage: Standing opponent.

Now I'm lost.

If the hippogriff ends 50' away and at a 10' elevation, how is the op getting a full attack? Do they have both a melee and a missile weapon ready?

I mean, this might be a bad idea for the hippo vs. a spellcaster (or a party), but vs. some dude with armor, a shield and a weapon it seems pretty good.

 

[Greenfield]

Now I'm lost.

If the hippogriff ends 50' away and at a 10' elevation, how is the op getting a full attack? Do they have both a melee and a missile weapon ready?

I mean, this might be a bad idea for the hippo vs. a spellcaster (or a party), but vs. some dude with armor, a shield and a weapon it seems pretty good.

Look at the sequence he laid out.

1) Hippogriff charges from 50' away, and 10' up, finishing his round with a wingover adjacent to the target.
2) Hippogriff withdraws to 50 feet away, 10 feet up, and does another wingover to set up the next round.

Q: What happens between those two stages, when the Hippogriff is adjacent to the target (having first finished his charge)?

A: A full round of attacks by the target on an adjacent foe.

The Hippogriff is ending his charge within striking distance. The Wingover maneuver consumes 10 feet of flying distance, according to the SRD, but doesn't actually displace the flier, so he's still adjacent to the creature he just struck. And while a Hippogriff is Large, he has a Face/Reach of 10/5, so the ground-based target doesn't even have to take a 5 foot step to close.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Because it takes the hippogryph two rounds to pull this trick off. On the first, charge (single attack) and wingover. On the second, [single attack and] fly away. Third round, charge (single attack) and wingover; etc.

In between the hipp's first and second round moves, he's standing next to the grounded opponent.

 

[Greenfield]

Actually he gets no attack before flying away. It was described as a withdrawal, to avoid AoO.