Dealing with logical but gamebreaking requests

[RedTonic]

When my players ask me for something, I usually consider the following:
is the request rational in the context of setting and context?
is the request compliant with the rules of our game?
what is the substance--the motivation, result, and consequence--of the request, if I grant it?
Will it result in fun?

I'm typing from an iPhone so please forgive any typing oddity.

I try to create internally consistent worlds, which provide me a framework, combined with core and house rules, upon which to make decisions. That includes a behind the scenes game of resource management with my population of mooks, specialists and foes which pcs participate as wild cards. I try to an extent to anpticipate requests given any scenario I pose. As someone more than a bit gamist, I try to prevent what I see as untenable situations before they occur. It's part of my cost f quality evaluation.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Our GM quit DnD. Seriously.

This GM was extremely rules savvy. He remains the single best DM I've played with for rule proficiency. His mastery of the 3.5 rule set was simply staggering.

That said, when our 9th cleric decided he'd start selling 1st level cures for 100gp a pop (14+ spells per day) the GM suffered a gaming breakdown. Nothing in the rules prevented this, though logic suggested, even in a large city, you aren't going to have an overwhelming demand for cure light wounds. Even if there was such a demand, you'd think at some point the cleric's deity might get pissed off at this money making scheme at his expense (unless the vast, vast majority was being donated back to the church).

Sadly, the DM in question saw no logical reason why this wasn't a valid money making scheme as set forth by the rules. So he stopped running the game. While he remained with the group for a couple of years, though he swore he'd never run a 3rd edition game again.

The rules can be anchor if you let them.

WOW! That made him quit?

Just because you have a service for sale doesn't mean that you will automatically have an endless line of customers. The most likely source for these customers would be other adventurers operating in the area. Even a good sized city won't have enough people buying these to make the time worth it compared to what could be earned on adventures.

If the DM couldn't figure out that 14 cures per day at 100g each would not automatically equal 1400g a day then he just wasn't thinking things through.


To the OP's problem just remember that even a university doesn't have unlimited resources. They might have X amount of gold that they can spare to search for someone. the PCs can opt to do the work themselves and get a better payday from the adventure or have the scrying done to make things easier but the cost will come out of the reward.

It isn't like this would provide the PC's with permenant access to these resources or anything so let them decide.

 

[Elf Witch]

I don't play 4E so I am not sure how scry works. But as others have pointed out it if it is that expensive maybe the library does not have that kind of funds. Which is why they hired the low level party instead of the major heroes down the block.

In my games how I usually handle this is that I don't have a lot of high level mages and clerics running around. I also don't put hooks in where the party would be the ones being hired to accomplish something for a patron of wealth with resources. I save that stuff until they themselves are more accomplished.

 

[steeldragons]

Just reiterating some points here:

If it suits the story, then sure, in a university of sages (one can assume the professors are at least fairly "high level" -obviously :high level" means different things to different systems and campaigns.) So your options are, as stated:

1) Let the NPCs run the ritual, "off camera" as it were and provide them with a location.
2) NOT let them run the ritual. Either because a) it is waaay too expensive for the university to even consider, if you chart/keep track of such things, b) While the professors are very capable, there actually isn't anyone high enough level to cast it...in a university of sages though, this sounds weak/flimsy to me if I were a player.
3) Have the ritual (on or off camera as you prefer for good -or just plain convenient- storytelling) and not get any results...
3-i)...or only get partial results ("We only know they are to the north")
3-ii)...or get faulty results ("They're in the parlor with a knife."..when they're actually "in the kitchen with a candlestick.")

and 4) My initial reaction when I read the OP was simply, "Isn't there some way the abductors (or those that hired the abductors) would be able to defend themselves against scrying? A counterspell/ritual, non-detection? misdirection? Some mystical "gaudy broach against scrying". Even just something with a limited charge, like "It'll foil attempts at divination 3 times before becoming just a normal gaudy broach."

That way, the NPCs "tried" and were "blocked". They'll be ticked at the unfruitful "waste" of resources (and what sounds to me to be massive amounts of gold, again if you keep track of such things).

You didn't tell the PCs "No, you can't." to their perfectly logical request, which should keep them happy while at the same time maintaining story integrity and leaving it up to them to figure out...at their level.

Now to the actual point of the post, as a DM, if the resources are there (in a given town or city, temple, what have you) then sure the PCs can try to gain access to it. I do like to try to maintain some internal world consistency.

For example: If I tell the party (or more likely, they find out by asking around town) that "this city contains the high/greatest temple of the goddess of magic in the known world", I can't then say "Nooooo, they don't have any magical resources you can use."

Of course, maybe the head cleric is a big jerk who reserves his magics for his "local congregation" not wandering passerbys. Or insists that only devout worshipers of the goddess are permitted access to the library (but some acolytes can try to look things up for you if you wish...with a reasonable donation of course Maybe the "really sacred magical tomes and scrolls" (i.e. high level spells/rituals) or truly "arcane" histories and documents are for the highest level of the clergy's eyes only, period.

Simply because a resource is there does not mean the PCs automatically have access to it...even if it is logical they should ask for it.

Now, if the party then undertakes some endeavor to try to win the high priest's good graces...side-adventure fun time! And it might get them somewhere.

I suppose the overall POINT I'm rambling on about is this:

As logical as PC requests can be, there are plenty of equally logical reasons a DM can come up with to limit (or flat out refuse) things the DM feel should be beyond the PCs reach without disrupting the story or immersion.

Good luck and happy gaming.
--Steel Dragons

 

[Janx]

a couple of thoughts come to mind in the crafting of this adventure:

PC level should also equate social level.

At 1st level, the PCs don't have a lot of money. Money is status. You go up in level, your name gets known, you shop at the better stores, etc. This social ranking also creates opportunities. The 20th level Noble is going to talk to his 20th level PC friends he met at the duke's party last month about his little "problem". If his problem was truly little, he'd have his 4th level manservant look into getting it resolved (which means he hires a 2nd level party).

By making sure that most of the time, low level PCs are not interacting with high level NPC's business, you avoid SOME of this problem of access to resources beyond their level.

Nextly, when designing the adventure, don't forget that the NPCs involved HAVE resources to help apply to the problem and WILL be motivated to use them. Arms dealers who are short on man-power will be motivated to LOAN some gear out to solve the problem. Sages will DONATE some time and information towards the problem. The PCs should hardly even have to ask (though maybe you'll wait until the 2nd scene to bring it up, or volunteer it if the PCs seem stuck).

Thirdly, the general premise of most hooks is an NPC has a problem and the PCs are in a position to help. If yours has this premise, then make bloody certain that the NPCs are constrained on the kind of resources the PCs have. This then is why the PCs are exactly what the NPCs need. The town guard probably doesn't need to hire more fighters to fight stuff. But they might have need for a team of specialists who can sneak into an area and solve a problem they want off the books. The sages should have no lack of information. What they lack is muscle to go get their buddy and item back.


Lastly, every story or adventure has a complication. Say yes, and give them the resource that makes sense, but would seem to simplify the problem ("Yay, we got awesome weapons!" or "Piece of cake, we know exactly where they're keeping the hostage!"). The complication then is that sages are not street smart. They may have given you the exact location of the enemy, but not realized that people move, and perhaps even change shifts. Its possible that the retrieval is complicated because one of the sages was crooked (and that would explain how the bad guys knew who to grab). Basically, accept that this "extra" resource makes things easier as PART of the design, and then rebalance the adventure by adding in a proper complication.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Our GM quit DnD. Seriously.

This GM was extremely rules savvy. He remains the single best DM I've played with for rule proficiency. His mastery of the 3.5 rule set was simply staggering.

That said, when our 9th cleric decided he'd start selling 1st level cures for 100gp a pop (14+ spells per day) the GM suffered a gaming breakdown. Nothing in the rules prevented this, though logic suggested, even in a large city, you aren't going to have an overwhelming demand for cure light wounds. Even if there was such a demand, you'd think at some point the cleric's deity might get pissed off at this money making scheme at his expense (unless the vast, vast majority was being donated back to the church).

Sadly, the DM in question saw no logical reason why this wasn't a valid money making scheme as set forth by the rules. So he stopped running the game. While he remained with the group for a couple of years, though he swore he'd never run a 3rd edition game again.

The rules can be anchor if you let them.

Interesting - I'm sure there is more to the story than you are telling us... however, even in a large city, there are going to be a limited amount of people that can even purchase a single potion of cure light wounds.

Plus, there will also be people who follow other deities in the city that might not like the competition and/or the deity ("Hey, why is Chuck the Cleric of Deity X selling cure light wounds potions for 100gp each? I follow Deity Y and I'm going to sell my potions for 90gp each and give away a free potion with every 10 purchased." Then, the follower of Deity Z says it is immoral to make a profit off of healing others, so she will require only a service for her church in exchange for a potion and she undercuts both the PC and the NPC cleric of Deity Y)

Not to mention a visit from the town guard a few weeks into the potion sale, "Last night, we had a group of evil blood cultists raid a merchant's guild meeting, killing several wealthy merchants and their guards and making off with thousands in platinum and gold... one of the surviving guards said that even when they attacked the cultists, they would drink a potion and heal right up on the spot. We found a dozen of these potion vials with the markings of your deity on them. We're going to have to question you about supplying the evil cult with their healing abilities.")

 

[Crothian]

That said, when our 9th cleric decided he'd start selling 1st level cures for 100gp a pop (14+ spells per day) the GM suffered a gaming breakdown. Nothing in the rules prevented this, though logic suggested, even in a large city, you aren't going to have an overwhelming demand for cure light wounds. Even if there was such a demand, you'd think at some point the cleric's deity might get pissed off at this money making scheme at his expense (unless the vast, vast majority was being donated back to the church).

We had this happen in a game many years ago. As the DM I went into so much minutia of running a business and competitors and everything that no one thinks goes into running ones business that for a while it looked like the campaign was going to be about that. And then the other players stepped it. They thought it was boring and stupid to do so they basically revolted and told him that if that's what he wanted to do then they were leaving him.

Sometimes as DM you don't have to make the tough choices. Just let the other players do it for you.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I think steeldragons has some good suggestions above. I'd give him XP, but I must spread it around more before giving to him again.

But, as he says above, you can have the ritual done off camera and give the PCs the location (i.e., "this ritual is a school secret that we cannot give out to anybody - the person kidnapped was the only one who could make an exception...")

As he also says, maybe the kidnappers have a way of blocking scrying attemps, or making it more expensive? I'm sure people that are smarter than me on here (which is most of you) can come up with other reasons as well if you want to go that route.

And, if this is a 3rd level party in 4E, I think rewarding them in the end with a level 6 item is not entirely out of line. Sure, it's powerful, but I think by that time, the suggested treasure by level 3 might have at least 1 level 5 or 6 item for the party?

 

[Rel]

As a fairly strategic player, I always tend to look for this kind of stuff. And it's always disappointing to me if the GM just falls back on, "No they don't have any scrying magic they can use because otherwise there wouldn't be an adventure for you guys." I carry that attitude with me into the role of GM.

Thus I always try and think in terms of what the goals of the NPCs are and what resources they can bring to bear upon them before the PCs get involved. In my mind the scenario above might play out like this:

PC: "Have you made any attempt to find out who is behind this kidnapping and theft?"
Head Sage In Charge: "Well of course. We have a variety of divination magics available to us and we've gleaned quite a bit of information. We know that it was done by a band of clad in all brown that we believe to be the mercenary group of bandits known as the Brotherhood of the Hills. And we know exactly where they went too."
PC: "And where is that?"
HSIC: "Into the Magebane Forest."
PC: "Does the University not have the resources to go into the forest and get them?"
HSIC: "I'm guessing that you don't know a lot about the Magebane Forest. The species of trees that grows there draws energy from the ambient magic around them, thereby depleting that magic. This makes it impossible to scry upon anybody inside the forest and makes most of the University Wizards rather nervous about going there."
PC: "Well if the Brotherhood was merely passing through there on the way to their headquarters then maybe you should simply find out where their hideout is and confront them there directly."
HSIC: "We care little for a direct confrontation with the Brotherhood. We simply want back what was stolen. Furthermore, it seems unlikely that the Brotherhood took those things for their own benefit. We think it is very possible that they made an exchange inside the Magebane Forest with whoever hired them."
PC: "So you want us to go into the Magebane Forest and see if we can track them to wherever the rendezvous took place and then follow the correct group to recover your researcher and documents. That sounds like something we could handle..."


If the group of PCs includes spellcasters that might be rendered useless by the Magebane Forest then I might also have the University provide them with a "Jar of Magic" that would, on a very limited basis, let them recover their powers while in the Magebane Forest.

This concept allows the patron to be seen using their resources to accomplish their goals by helping the PCs rather than simply saying, "We're paying you some money. YOU figure it out."

 

[NewJeffCT]

We had this happen in a game many years ago. As the DM I went into so much minutia of running a business and competitors and everything that no one thinks goes into running ones business that for a while it looked like the campaign was going to be about that. And then the other players stepped it. They thought it was boring and stupid to do so they basically revolted and told him that if that's what he wanted to do then they were leaving him.

Sometimes as DM you don't have to make the tough choices. Just let the other players do it for you.

good story. The only way I could be happy doing that as a player is in a campaign wrap-up... "OK, we defeated the BBEG and averted the Apocalypse, now what are you doing to do?" (well, after the obligatory joke from somebody about, "I'm going to Disney World") I could then see one person saying, "I'm going to sell cure light wounds potions in Waterdeep, using the profits to purchase a nice villa in town, settle down, get married and have a few kids..."