Just how compatible is Essentials?

[Jhaelen]

I'm not accepting some of the responses here, only because I don't see it at all. This issue only seems to exist on the interwebs >_>

"I don't have that problem, therefore there is no problem." Interesting!

Regarding the psionic power comparison: There are no psionic builds of non-psionic classes. So, there's no compatibility issue.

Heroes of Shadow includes a new Warlock (Hexblade) build. It's incompatible with the PHB1 Warlock. So that _is_ a compatibility issue.

 

[DracoSuave]

If, if if.

The book itself says you need Essentials products to use it. Why should someone have to go to the store owner, or a website, or a forum to find out it can be sued with any 4E book.

that is just wrong. Blaming the store owner is ridiculous.

Because listing every Fourth edition D&D product ever made on the back of, say, Heroes of Shadow is stupid?

Picture if it said, as well as listing every essentials core product, PHB 1, PHB 2, PHB 3, Monster Manual, and the DMG 1 AND DMG 2.

Seriously. I went online to see if I could find an image of an essentials back cover so I could use GIMP to show you how utterly retarded that would look.

Some questions should just answer themselves.

 

[DracoSuave]

Heroes of Shadow includes a new Warlock (Hexblade) build. It's incompatible with the PHB1 Warlock. So that _is_ a compatibility issue.

My warlock can't take a swordmage build either so Forgotten Realms must be incompatible with PHB1.

Oh wait, that's stupid.

Altho you're absolutely right, the Heroes of Shadow book does have a section of Warlock powers, and the original warlock can't take those so...

...oh wait they can? All the dailies can be taken?!

Well then. I suppose Heroes of Shadow IS compatible.

 

[Jhaelen]

My warlock can't take a swordmage build either so Forgotten Realms must be incompatible with PHB1.

Okay, I'll write a bit more slowly, maybe then you understand the difference:

Hexblade is the name of a build for the Warlock class introduced in Heroes of Shadow.
'Sorcerer King Pact' is another build for the Warlock class introduced in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting.

I only have the PHB1, not the HotF*** book.
This means, I can use everything from the 'Sorcerer King Pact' build in my game.
I cannot, however, use everything from the Hexblade build in my game.

When reading the Hexblade stuff in HoS I kept wondering how it's supposed to work, obviously I'm missing some important information.

What is this if not a compatibility issue?

Swordmage is a different class than Warlock, not a different build of the same class.
I would not expect to be able to make full use of everything from a different class.
To use things from a different class usually requires multi-classing or playing a hybrid.

Neither should be required to use things from a different build of the same class.

Do you understand the difference between a build and a class or should I elaborate? I realize you're new to the game and might have trouble with these terms

 

[Ajar]

This thread has moved on from my posts, but I wanted to make a quick note -- the psionic power point classes still follow the encounter power structure. Power points are directly analogous to (and are balanced against) encounter powers.

That's actually the route I would have preferred to see WotC go, but I freely admit that I underestimated the number of people who would like the Essentials simplicity and style enough to invest in it.

 

[Obryn]

Not to quarrel with your 'theme' argument (which I note and agree with), but I don't recall the warden even being mentioned in the discussions at the time about the changes to out-of-turn saving throws.

IIRC, the concern was actually that it could be a very bad idea for leaders to grant saving throws to their allies, which is obviously counter-intuitive.

It wasn't mentioned because the change to saving throws was one of the earliest pieces of "stealth errata" (in this case, more like surprise errata). It appeared in the PHB2 first, in the same book as the Warden, rather than online, and you wouldn't have known it if you didn't read the part at the end about saving throws. (It was in the same section as the literal Stealth errata, which ironically was not "stealth errata" at all.)

-O

 

[Neonchameleon]

Okay, I'll write a bit more slowly, maybe then you understand the difference:

Hexblade is the name of a build for the Warlock class introduced in Heroes of Shadow.
'Sorcerer King Pact' is another build for the Warlock class introduced in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting.
...

What is this if not a compatibility issue?

Swordmage is a different class than Warlock, not a different build of the same class.
I would not expect to be able to make full use of everything from a different class.
To use things from a different class usually requires multi-classing or playing a hybrid.

Neither should be required to use things from a different build of the same class.

Let me put this simply for you. Hexblade is a subclass of Warlock. Hexblade is not a warlock - for most purposes it is a different class. That is why it is called a Hexblade and not a Warlock. It merely shares feats and utility and daily powers with the Warlock class in the PHB. If you think of it as a different class with some cross-compatability then your entire objection here vanishes like a puff of hot air.

Do you understand the difference between a build and a class or should I elaborate? I realize you're new to the game and might have trouble with these terms

Do you understand the difference between a build and a subclass or should I elaborate? I understand you're behind on the game and might have trouble with these terms

Yes, you were missing information. That isn't a compatability issue. That's a you missing information and not knowing what a Hexblade is issue. Which means apparently you don't have access to either HOFK or the Character Builder and DDI. Next you'll be saying that Martial Power 2 has problems because it has powers that only work if your ranger has an animal companion, but you don't know how a ranger can have one because you don't own Martial Power 1.

 

[Vael]

When reading the Hexblade stuff in HoS I kept wondering how it's supposed to work, obviously I'm missing some important information.

What is this if not a compatibility issue?

Well, imagine instead you had a Warlock power in Heroes of Shadow that referenced Sorcerer-King Pact, any reference to "Fell Might" is also meaningless without the Dark Sun book. Is that a compatibility issue?

Plus, Essentials builds are more like new subclasses than builds, they're quite different than their parent class, but there is some limited interchangeability. So the Swordmage analogy still works, you're just being deliberately obtuse.

 

[malraux]

A quick google lookup produces this definition, which fits what I'm using very well:

Adjective: No longer produced or used; out of date.

That describes much of PH1 (and MM1, and much of DMG) to a T. They aren't produced, and they are out of date (and have been or are intended to be replaced; in PH1's case by a combination of Class Compendium and Rules Compendium).

They are still used, but for character creation at 1st level, there's no need to; RC + CC does a much better job (at least once CC is complete) due to incorporating the latest updates.

(a big missing piece, of course, is the items and ritual section of PH1, which are only obseleted by the online rules).

Martial Power is obsalescent. It's no longer produced, but it's still available, and its contents are irreplacable (except via DDI). I'd expect that Wizards will want to produce the content in an Essentials-forward form at some point just to have a coherent product line and system, just like they did Class Compendium. Whether they can afford to, is, naturally, another question.

I'd suggest that deprecated fits better than obsolete.

 

[Jhaelen]

Hexblade is a subclass of Warlock. Hexblade is not a warlock - for most purposes it is a different class.

Okay, got it:
A subclass is what you call a build that happens to be incompatible with other builds.

Whew, thanks for clearing _that_ up!