Runestaff via UMD?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Explain why there is a separate entry for Use Wand if Emulate Class Feature does the same thing in your interpretation.

Use a Wand: DC 20
Emulate a Class Feature: DC 20 + Required Level

They don't do the same thing. But, in actuality, using a wand is just like emulating a "level 0" feature of a class - or, in other words, it's easier to use a wand than it is to emulate "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells."

So, I don't see the issue you're trying to point out with your statement.

 

[Andras]

Use a Wand: DC 20
Emulate a Class Feature: DC 20 + Required Level

They don't do the same thing. But, in actuality, using a wand is just like emulating a "level 0" feature of a class - or, in other words, it's easier to use a wand than it is to emulate "Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells."

So, I don't see the issue you're trying to point out with your statement.

from your earlier post-

UMD allows you to emulate having specific class abilities - e.g., it allows you to fake having a spell on your class's spell list (and also having a spell list, sometimes!) in order to trigger a wand.

You clearly identified Use Wand with Emulate Class Ability, when they are different aspects of the skill. ECA is harder to use since you need a higher result ie a 21 to imitate a 1st level cleric's turn undead ability. I'd need a result that has a net CL high enough to activate the spell, ie 5 for a 3rd level spell.


What I am emulating is the spell slot, not just a class spell list (which needs a separate roll). Can you say that casting a 3rd level spell is not a class feature?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You clearly identified Use Wand with Emulate Class Ability,

Oh. Sorry about that. Imprecise wording - having a spell on your class spell list is one of the things UMD lets you emulate; there are other abilities it lets you emulate, as well.

What I am emulating is the spell slot, not just a class spell list (which needs a separate roll). Can you say that casting a 3rd level spell is not a class feature?

Sure, you can emulate "Able to Cast 3rd-Level [Divine / Arcane] Spells" by emulating "Being a 5th-level Cleric, Druid, or Wizard," which has a DC 25.

That does not actually give you 3rd-level spell slots, and it certainly doesn't allow you to spend it on anything.

You could not, for instance, emulate being a 4th-level Sorceror and then cast burning hands.

 

[Andras]

You could not, for instance, emulate being a 4th-level Sorceror and then cast burning hands.

That you actually said this in an apparently serious manner means you do not understand the matter and I will no longer place any weight on your arguments.

Because, you know, that directly contradicts the rules.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That you actually said this in an apparently serious manner means you do not understand the matter and I will no longer place any weight on your arguments.

Because, you know, that directly contradicts the rules.

I'm terribly sorry, but that's what you're trying to do.

Can a character, in my case a Rogue, activate a Runestaff via UMD? A Runestaff normally requires the sacrifice of a spell slot, but the example in the PHB has Lidda using a chalice as if she spent a turn undead attempt.

You want to emulate having a spell slot, and then sacrifice it. UMD will let you emulate having spell slots, but you aren't allowed to actually use them (including sacrificing them to activate the staff), just like you can't expend one to have a spell happen.

Similarly, emulating "being a Sorcerer" will let you emulate a caster level and a familiar, but you don't actually get a psychic rat following you around and you don't actually gain a caster level thereby.

I'm sorry I can't just tell you whatever trick you're trying to pull off will work, but it won't. Runestaves are "+ Spellbook" items for sorcerors, and "+ spontaneous casting" items for wizards.

EDIT:

And let's say your idea did work - that you could emulate having fake spell slots and then expend these imaginary slots to power a runestaff. Then, let's say you're playing a sorcerer, and you've got a runestaff with a 2nd-level spell in it. Sorcs get 2nd-level spell as Sorcerer 4s. So long as you can hit a DC 24 UMD check, you can cast that spell an unlimited number of times per day, because you'd just emulate having imaginary slots, expend them, and hold on to your regular casting. All you'd need is a +14 bonus to make sure you never critically fail, which is pretty easily doable at rather low levels.

No, I'm sorry, your idea does not work.

 

[Ranes]

Sorry. I've been AFK for a few hours. First of all, thanks for your replies to me and Andras.

Oh. Sorry about that. Imprecise wording - having a spell on your class spell list is one of the things UMD lets you emulate; there are other abilities it lets you emulate, as well.

Sure, you can emulate "Able to Cast 3rd-Level [Divine / Arcane] Spells" by emulating "Being a 5th-level Cleric, Druid, or Wizard," which has a DC 25.

That does not actually give you 3rd-level spell slots, and it certainly doesn't allow you to spend it on anything.

You could not, for instance, emulate being a 4th-level Sorceror and then cast burning hands.

I understand that UMD used to cast an nth level cleric spell is not equivalent to being able to turn undead (although being able to turn undead is a class feature and UMD says that it enables you to emulate class features).

I also understand that you can attempt to cast a spell from a scroll without necessarily being able to cast spells of that level.

However, it is not like anyone is saying UMD enables you to cast a first level spell, therefore you can cast burning hands. The suggestion is that UMD can be used to say that, in the case of a successful UMD roll, you are capable of emulating a class feature - that being the ability to cast a spell of slot level x. Thereafter, the device you want to use casts the specific spell in question.

With all due respect - and I'm happy to differ to you in many cases - I don't think you have presented a case that compels me to abandon my initial interpretation.

I do, however, welcome any further input you care to give.

Thanks in advance.

Edit: you've posted a reply while I've been composing mine. Let me read your elucidation.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'll wait.

 

[Ranes]

Right. I've read.

I'm terribly sorry, but that's what you're trying to do.

You want to emulate having a spell slot, and then sacrifice it. UMD will let you emulate having spell slots, but you aren't allowed to actually use them (including sacrificing them to activate the staff), just like you can't expend one to have a spell happen.

What's the point of you being able to emulate having a slot if the emulated slot isn't somehow usable?

Similarly, emulating "being a Sorcerer" will let you emulate a caster level and a familiar, but you don't actually get a psychic rat following you around and you don't actually gain a caster level thereby.

Gaining a familiar is a ritual that takes 24 hours and costs money. I do not know of a spell that does this. I do not know of a magical device that does this. Ergo, I don't see how UMD pertains to familiars.

And let's say your idea did work - that you could emulate having fake spell slots and then expend these imaginary slots to power a runestaff.

That's just not fair. You are not emulating a "fake" slot. You are emulating a real one.

Then, let's say you're playing a sorcerer, and you've got a runestaff with a 2nd-level spell in it. Sorcs get 2nd-level spell as Sorcerer 4s. So long as you can hit a DC 24 UMD check, you can cast that spell an unlimited number of times per day, because you'd just emulate having imaginary slots, expend them, and hold on to your regular casting. All you'd need is a +14 bonus to make sure you never critically fail, which is pretty easily doable at rather low levels.

You have to hit that UMD check every time you want to use the staff. If your relevant stat isn't high enough, you have to hit another UMD check for that every time as well. That seems to me to be what UMD is all about. And it seems reasonable.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

What's the point of you being able to emulate having a slot if the emulated slot isn't somehow usable?

Depends on the item, I'd imagine. I'd also argue that emulating having spell slots is less likely to be important; I can't think of any items off the top of my head *other* than the Runestaff that requires them, and the Runestaff only requires them so that you can expend them. If there were an item that gained increasing power depending on the highest level spell you could cast, then emulating such slots would be useful. For a runestaff, though, it is not useful.

Keep in mind what the purpose of a runestave is - it's an item that is supposed to allow a sorcerer, through an item, to increase their spells known, and it's supposed to allow a wizard, through an item, to gain a bit of spontaneous casting ability.

Would you allow someone, with a DC21 UMD check (and a fairly inexpensive item), to cast Cure Light Wounds at will? That's what the OP is asking for - unlimited spells.

Normal staves and wands have charges; runestaves use your spells-per-day as their charges.

Gaining a familiar is a ritual that takes 24 hours and costs money.

But emulating the "Familiar" class feature is a DC 21 UMD check. The fact that the ritual takes time and costs money is immaterial.

I do not know of a spell that does this. I do not know of a magical device that does this. Ergo, I don't see how UMD pertains to familiars.

Consider an item ("Keoghtom's Bag of Puppy Treats") that allowed anyone with the Familiar class feature to affect, with a command-word activation, Enlarge Animal 2x per day at CL whatever, but it could affect magical beasts.

The item is obviously designed for wizards to "buff" their familiars - but a rogue could use it on a trained Unicorn mount with a UMD check, DC 21 for Wizard 1 or Sorcerer 1, to emulate having the Familiar class feature.

But, additionally, Sorcerer is not a class for which the particular ability ("emulating a class feature") is going to come up very often.

That's just not fair. You are not emulating a "fake" slot. You are emulating a real one.

On the contrary - "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class." You can emulate having slots, but you can't use them.

If your relevant stat isn't high enough, you have to hit another UMD check for that every time as well.

No, you don't. You only have to emulate a stat score for spell completion magical items, like scrolls.

 

[Ranes]

Thanks for the quick response. I have to say now, though, that this will be my last for this evening, as it's late here. Very late.

Depends on the item, I'd imagine. I'd also argue that emulating having spell slots is less likely to be important; I can't think of any items off the top of my head *other* than the Runestaff that requires them, and the Runestaff only requires them so that you can expend them. If there were an item that gained increasing power depending on the highest level spell you could cast, then emulating such slots would be useful. For a runestaff, though, it is not useful.

Keep in mind what the purpose of a runestave is - it's an item that is supposed to allow a sorcerer, through an item, to increase their spells known, and it's supposed to allow a wizard, through an item, to gain a bit of spontaneous casting ability.

Would you allow someone, with a DC21 UMD check (and a fairly inexpensive item), to cast Cure Light Wounds at will? That's what the OP is asking for - unlimited spells.

I must have missed the bit where being able to use a runestaff through UMD gives you unlimited spells. If I emulate the class ability of a wizard to cast a 4th level spell - and then I use that emulated 4th level spell slot to use the runestaff - it's gone. There's nothing unlimited here. The class ability was one 4th level slot a day and I've emulated it. See you tomorrow.

Normal staves and wands have charges; runestaves use your spells-per-day as their charges.

Spells per day: this is the class feature I am referring to.

But emulating the "Familiar" class feature is a DC 21 UMD check. The fact that the ritual takes time and costs money is immaterial.

My point was - and forgive the lack of clarity - where is the device that enables you to summon a familiar? To use UMD, it must be applied to a device. I was trying to say that I know of no such device. I suppose there might be one but it's off my radar.

Consider an item ("Keoghtom's Bag of Puppy Treats") that allowed anyone with the Familiar class feature to affect, with a command-word activation, Enlarge Animal 2x per day at CL whatever, but it could affect magical beasts.

The item is obviously designed for wizards to "buff" their familiars - but a rogue could use it on a trained Unicorn mount with a UMD check, DC 21 for Wizard 1 or Sorcerer 1, to emulate having the Familiar class feature.

Aha! A hypothetical device of the kind to which I was referring. Good. I would quibble with the device definition were anyone to try to create it, though. I would make such a device work not on magical beats but only on familiars. And then we return to my question: where is the device that enables you to summon the familiar in the first place?

And, if there is such a device, then I would say that the 'emulate class feature' aspect of UMD would enable you to attempt to use that device, of course. But then I'd make any familiar acquired subject to the ongoing-effect-check-every-hour rule and then you'd need hourly checks on your bag of puppy treats' effects as well.

On the contrary - "This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class." You can emulate having slots, but you can't use them.

Hang on. The very next sentence is:

"It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature."

No, you don't. You only have to emulate a stat score for spell completion magical items, like scrolls.

I am away from the book now but I thought the MIC, from which I read the runestaff entry (I've never used one in my game) was vague one the activation method. Doesn't it say 'as spell'? That doesn't give me enough information to determine that you don't need to have a sufficiently high relevant stat just as you would - as you point out - with a scroll.