Converting "generic setting" Second Edition monsters

[Cleon]

Yes, I was pretty ambivalent about that extra slam. Agreed with leaving it off.

What about this?

Subservient to Fire (Ex?): A fire phantom is so tied to the plane of fire, that it can be controlled or banished by other elementals of the fire subtype. The other elemental attempts to turn the fire phantom as a cleric of its HD; the fire phantom resists as an undead with +2 turn resistance (?). A successful turn attempt indicates that the elemental may banish the fire phantom to the plane of fire. Alternately, the other elemental may attempt to command the fire phantom. The elemental makes an opposed level check against the caster who summoned the fire phantom; if the check succeeds, the elemental controls the phantom, and otherwise the phantom is banished as normal.

That seems a fair match to the original, but I'm not sure whether we should include it. Elementals in AD&D had a hierarchy with at least the implication that the higher rank ones could control the lower ones (although they only had rules for such in the case of elemental lords and the like).

I'm thinking it might be if the power means that if it encounters a Fire Elemental (with more HD than it?) that already has a "control elemental" type power, it automatically fails to resist if the elemental tries to control it.

 

[freyar]

What are the elementals that can control other elementals? I'm blanking on that. But I can see your reasoning in that case.

 

[Cleon]

What are the elementals that can control other elementals? I'm blanking on that. But I can see your reasoning in that case.

Mostly it's implied rather than stated, with mention that "On the elemental plane of air can be found certain intelligent air elementals which have special abilities beyond the above" and offhand remarks about elementals being ruled by a boss, chief or king. There's also the elemental princes of evil in the Fiend Folio, which are able to summon elementals of their own element (except for Cryonax, I believe that was because TSR didn't have cold elementals in an official hardback at the time).

That suggests that AD&D elementals have a hierarchical system, suggesting it's more an authority figure relationship than the supernatural control that, for example, a water weird can impose on a water elemental.

Such a hierarchy is not that surprising. Lots of extraplanar monster types have a suspiciously neat hierarchical system in AD&D.

 

[freyar]

Actually, when you said this:

I'm thinking it might be if the power means that if it encounters a Fire Elemental (with more HD than it?) that already has a "control elemental" type power, it automatically fails to resist if the elemental tries to control it.

I just wondered if there are any 3.X elementals that can control elementals.

 

[Cleon]

Actually, when you said this:

I just wondered if there are any 3.X elementals that can control elementals.

Well there are chaps like the elementals lords/princes, who I believe have 3E stats in some Dragon articles. They have the ability to control elementals, don't they?

Hmm, don't the more intelligent elementals actually worship the elemental princes (or the boss/king/god(s) of their element). Presumably, some of those 'religious' elementals have levels in cleric and an Elemental Domain. They can then use clerical turning to control others of their kind...

Apart from that, I can't think of any contenders that my vague memory says have any support by official 3E sources.

 

[freyar]

Well, for this particular critter, I think I'd rather have them either be commanded by all elementals or just ignore this bit in the flavor text. It seems like too much of a corner case otherwise.

 

[Shade]

I'd like to keep the "always commanded by others" since they have so little else to differentiate them from fire elementals.

 

[Cleon]

I'd like to keep the "always commanded by others" since they have so little else to differentiate them from fire elementals.

I'd be fine adding some kind of "subservience to fire" SQ, although I'd like to limit to fire elementals that have more HD than the fire phantom.

 

[freyar]

So, do we like this or want to go another route?

Subservient to Fire (Ex?): A fire phantom is so tied to the plane of fire, that it can be controlled or banished by other elementals of the fire subtype, as long as those elementals have more HD than the fire phantom. The other elemental attempts to turn the fire phantom as a cleric of its HD; the fire phantom resists as an undead with +2 turn resistance (?). A successful turn attempt indicates that the elemental may banish the fire phantom to the plane of fire. Alternately, the other elemental may attempt to command the fire phantom. The elemental makes an opposed level check against the caster who summoned the fire phantom; if the check succeeds, the elemental controls the phantom, and otherwise the phantom is banished as normal.

 

[Cleon]

So, do we like this or want to go another route?

Subservient to Fire (Ex?): A fire phantom is so tied to the plane of fire, that it can be controlled or banished by other elementals of the fire subtype, as long as those elementals have more HD than the fire phantom. The other elemental attempts to turn the fire phantom as a cleric of its HD; the fire phantom resists as an undead with +2 turn resistance (?). A successful turn attempt indicates that the elemental may banish the fire phantom to the plane of fire. Alternately, the other elemental may attempt to command the fire phantom. The elemental makes an opposed level check against the caster who summoned the fire phantom; if the check succeeds, the elemental controls the phantom, and otherwise the phantom is banished as normal.

I'd be OK with that, although if the elementals can control the fire phantom they ought to rebuke the phantoms rather than turn them.

Hmm, if Fire Elementals rebuke them, should we have Water Elementals turn them?