Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

[MrGrenadine]

Now if Paizo created a killer VTT, or partnered with the PCGen and MapTool folks, and made the app available for Mac OS, iOS, and Windows, THEN we're talking!

Not that I think there's any strategic partnership involved, I did play through the entire Runelords campaign using Maptool. And I currently use PC Gen to create and update my PF characters on my Mac.

PCGen :: Overview

 

[Reynard]

Not surprised by this. Given the dearth of published WotC products recently, I wouldn't be surprised if "Bob's Random RPG" outsold D&D the last couple of months. It's not hard to beat a publisher who actually isn't publishing anything, and that is all Paizo has really done.

You do realize that RPG books are supposed to be evergreen, right, and that D&D is supposed to be adding to its player base all the time? I'd be more inclined to agree with your rather dismissive assessment if we were comparing D&D's June release(s) and Pathfinder's Juen release(s), but that's not the case when you're talking about games that should constantly be selling new PHBs/Core Rules.

 

[Imaro]

Not surprised by this. Given the dearth of published WotC products recently, I wouldn't be surprised if "Bob's Random RPG" outsold D&D the last couple of months. It's not hard to beat a publisher who actually isn't publishing anything, and that is all Paizo has really done.

So why isn't every rpg company outselling WotC... I mean if beating a publisher who actually isn't publishing anything is all Paizo has really done... everyone should be able to top that. Right?

 

[Dausuul]

So why isn't every rpg company outselling WotC... I mean if beating a publisher who actually isn't publishing anything is all Paizo has really done... everyone should be able to top that. Right?

Nobody said WotC wasn't publishing at all. People still buy physical books, they just don't buy as many. I don't buy many books now that I have DDI, but I do buy some once in a while--usually for things that I need to refer to on the fly. The Rules Compendium, for instance, is a very handy table reference, and I plan to buy the new Monster Vault soon.

 

[Imaro]

Nobody said WotC wasn't publishing at all. People still buy physical books, they just don't buy as many. I don't buy many books now that I have DDI, but I do buy some once in a while--usually for things that I need to refer to on the fly. The Rules Compendium, for instance, is a very handy table reference, and I plan to buy the new Monster Vault soon.

Somebody did say that (in trying to use hyperbole to diminish Paizo's achievement), now please go back and read the post I was responding to. Thanks.

 

[Mark CMG]

As a senior developer/architect in a small company focused on MS web apps. I estimate that we could do something similar to the CB for about $250K to $300K. Maintenance on it would run up around 100K annual, if you wanted to do a decent job of tech support. You'd need a higher rate at start up for a few months. If you wanted it done really fast, those costs would go up sharply. We've done comparable or even larger things over a two year period, and met those rates, though.

OTOH, our company is in an area with a lot better cost of living than Seattle. Not sure what the factor would be for that, but double wouldn't surprise me.

Server costs aren't peanuts, but they are fraction of the development costs and tech support/maintenance employee costs.

None of this takes into account the non-technical people involved (publishing content) or any cost overruns from people not knowing what they were doing early.

So, not sure how profitable the whole thing is, but I'd say if they are pulling $400K to $560K per month, they are well on the road to profitablitlity, and it should get gradually better as time passes, initial investments are regained, and lessons are applied.

Thanks for the insights. I'd have to characterize the DDI as something more than an initial startup with maintenance costs, though. More like rolling out new but intergrated software every couple/few months. So it is more likely that the initial investment get s repeated periodically. Also, is the subscription rate now as high as ten dollars a month? Or is that the single month rate? I was under the impression that subscribers paid a lot less than ten bucks a month (six? five?).

Who here is a long time subscriber that can give us the current rates and a run down of how they have been since inception?

 

[Redbadge]

You do realize that RPG books are supposed to be evergreen, right, and that D&D is supposed to be adding to its player base all the time? I'd be more inclined to agree with your rather dismissive assessment if we were comparing D&D's June release(s) and Pathfinder's Juen release(s), but that's not the case when you're talking about games that should constantly be selling new PHBs/Core Rules.

As was said previously, the market is saturated with the core books. Also, there has been a dearth of 4e material recently. Normally my friends and I would be buying the Player's Handbook 4 or some other supplement, but we can't because WotC hasn't been releasing anything. But we are still ethusiastic supporters of the hobby, with plenty of discretionary dollars, so we've been buying Pathfinder supplements (mostly for reading, since we still play 4e primarily). While 4e has reached it's saturation (and WotC doesn't even publish the original core anymore), there are apparently many potential customers for Pathfinder. When Pathfinder reaches the saturation level 4e has reached, I suspect we will see their non-subscription sales slow as well.

Contrary to Imaro's belief, I'm not diminishing Paizo, and I'm not using hyperbole. We've recently been giving our money to Paizo because WotC's no longer asking for it (except for our DDI account, which the 9 of us share). I'm pointing out that if WotC had released anything significant this summer, Paizo wouldn't be "outselling" them right now.

I mentioned "Bob's Random RPG" because I figure its easier for people to buy obscure systems similar to this than to purchase a D&D 4e supplement that doesn't exist.

Edit: In case my intent is not clear, I'm trying to make a point about WotC, not trying to insult Paizo.

 

[Hussar]

Paizo's model seems adventure-based though. Adventures sell less, but don't saturate the market the way Player Character crunch eventually does. I tend to think Paizo's business model is relatively evergreen compared to the 3e & 4e D&D player-centric approach.

Y'know this is a point that I haven't seen raised before.

Pathfinder is the first RPG other than D&D itself, to base a lot of its strategy around modules. While modules may not be the best selling product, the fact that it makes running the game so much easier than making your own adventures (for whatever system you want to play), I wonder if the adventure focus really does drive sales to a large degree.

I mean, when Paizo was doing adventure paths for WOTC, that couldn't have hurt WOTC at all. Now, with WOTC's adventures being what they are (generally festering crap) and Paizo continuing to bring home stellar adventures, I wonder if we're seeing a very old market model (use adventures to sell the game) giving a newer market model (crunch and electronic offerings) a run for its money.

One wonders if things like En World's Zeitgeist adventure series might not be a boost for 4e. If 4e actually had some decent adventures and campaigns in a box, like Pathfinder does, would that not really help 4e along?

 

[Dannager]

I've seen the same sort of behavior from 4e fanatics (or fanatics of other systems). I don't think PF has any sort of lock on this.

Let's not pretend that the sort of behavior we see from, say, a handful of WHFRPG players towards those who play other games is the same sort of vocal, insular, bitter attitude that seems to define the Pathfinder community's interaction with the rest of the gaming world (and even some of the interaction within its own community).

It would be nice to be able to say that what we see is business as usual in RPG-land, but it's not.

 

[Redbadge]

Thanks for the insights. I'd have to characterize the DDI as something more than an initial startup with maintenance costs, though. More like rolling out new but intergrated software every couple/few months. So it is more likely that the initial investment get s repeated periodically. Also, is the subscription rate now as high as ten dollars a month? Or is that the single month rate? I was under the impression that subscribers paid a lot less than ten bucks a month (six? five?).

Who here is a long time subscriber that can give us the current rates and a run down of how they have been since inception?

We've been subscribing since the beginning. It started at about $50 a year I think, and now it's right around $77 a year, if I remember right.