Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

[I'm A Banana]

Really? Programming is expensive?

In comparison to just writing?

Oh goodness gracious yes.

Not that they aren't wildly profitable anyway, just that it's an additional expense to account for. The idea that you can trade books for electronics in an easy, simple, 1:1 relationship is flawed. I'm just trying to remind everyone that it's more complicated than that.

 

[Kaodi]

Just to respond to the one post that characterized Pathfinder as 3.75E, which is very common...

But the more I think of it the more I think it would be more accurate to say that Pathfinder is 3e 2nd Edition.

 

[SteveC]

In comparison to just writing?

Oh goodness gracious yes.

Not that they aren't wildly profitable anyway, just that it's an additional expense to account for. The idea that you can trade books for electronics in an easy, simple, 1:1 relationship is flawed. I'm just trying to remind everyone that it's more complicated than that.

As someone who both writes code and fiction, I'd say that if I could make half the money with fiction (heck, 25%) as with coding, I'd be writing full time. Code monkeys actually expect to get paid, and can get paid in many companies so there are market forces at work.

 

[DimitriX]

Another term for this is 'word of mouth', which any marketer will tell you is way better than advertising.

 

[Maggan]

Really? Programming is expensive? I work as a software engineer professionally. There is very little about the DDI stuff that I couldn't do with maybe a team of 10 programmers.

To put some perspective on the numbers.

To have team of 10 programmers working for me, I have to pay about 3000 to 5000 dollars a day (if the programmers were okay working for low wages).

To have a team of 10 writers working for me, writing game material, I would get away with maybe 1500 dollars a day, IF they cranked out top notch 100% usable right now material, otherwise I could drop their pay since they get paid per word written.

So coding is at least two to three times as expensive, just off the top of my head. Really, that seems to little, so I would guess that coding is about 10 times as expensive to buy than game design writing.

/M

 

[Starman]

I wonder how much of Pathfinder's sales are based upon the evangelical nature of its player base. I'm a system neutral type of guy. You can convince me to try out any system and there is a high chance that I'll find something about that system that I like. This also means that I tend to visit the forums for a bunch of games, and I definitely notice a change in tone between them.

There is definitely a core group of outspoken Pathfinder players who preach the Pathfinder way. While I'm not saying that they are a large percentage of Pathfinder players, they are extremely vocal. They will claim that 4th Edition abused their mother, killed their father and touched them in all the wrong places. The claim is usually that 4th Edition ruined D&D for them (a discussion for a different thread). This can best be demonstrated on the Piazo forums where a discussion was created about a high profile employee leaving WOTC. A overwhelming number of posts treated the man like he was the antichrist.

So I personally see the number of sales from Pathfinder attributed to the fans pushing the games into the hands of people. I know that for a new player to RPGs or 4th Edition, I wouldn't tell them to buy any of the books. I'd let them borrow a copy of my Rules Compendium or Player's Handbook and suggest that they get DDI for a month and build a few characters. If they took the time to create a character at Level X, X+1 and X+2, likely this would last them quite a few months in a bi-weekly campaign.

I feel that the number of hardcover sales by Paizo is generated by the fact that new players will be told that they need the books to play. I know that this is the case with Star Wars Saga Edition. While I love the system, I feel that the players will need the various books to level up their characters. While there are some computer related solutions for both Pathfinder and SWSE, I hardly believe that the sales of Heroforge + Pathfinder would be anywhere as large as DDI.

I've seen the same sort of behavior from 4e fanatics (or fanatics of other systems). I don't think PF has any sort of lock on this.

 

[IronWolf]

Really? Programming is expensive? I work as a software engineer professionally. There is very little about the DDI stuff that I couldn't do with maybe a team of 10 programmers. Seeing how I just spent the past few months working on a much more complex Flash application with only a team of 3 people, I don't see where this huge cost is coming in, especially if they are outsourcing the project to a company that isn't dedicating full time to this.

Most of the new improvements to things like the character builder and the like are simple data input. Adding new powers and classes in most cases is a data input project that could be done by any bum off the street. The most complex thing is likely to be the new virtual table. For that, look at the companies like D20 Pro or Fantasy Grounds. I doubt they have huge staffs and they still seem to be profitable.

The costs don't end once the app is written. Someone needs to maintain the code as the platforms they run on receive updates. Someone needs to make sure the app still works and if not, someone needs to update the DDI code to make sure it does. This is nearly a monthly need as security patches are rolled out.

Beyond just the continual maintenance of code there is the maintenance of the infrastructure it runs on - server hardware, operating systems, network, bandwidth, backups, the media to do those backups and the talent to manage all of that layer. Now that could be outsourced to a major data center, but it is still a monthly expense that adds up as the services scale up.

DDI is not a "program it once and forget about it" application.

 

[billd91]

To put some perspective on the numbers.

To have team of 10 programmers working for me, I have to pay about 3000 to 5000 dollars a day (if the programmers were okay working for low wages).

To have a team of 10 writers working for me, writing game material, I would get away with maybe 1500 dollars a day, IF they cranked out top notch 100% usable right now material, otherwise I could drop their pay since they get paid per word written.

So coding is at least two to three times as expensive, just off the top of my head. Really, that seems to little, so I would guess that coding is about 10 times as expensive to buy than game design writing.

/M

Plus, the cost of those coders is on top of the money you're already paying for your writers. And they're probably more expensive than any of the people they may have replaced within the organization as you've shifted away from printed books.

 

[IronWolf]

So I personally see the number of sales from Pathfinder attributed to the fans pushing the games into the hands of people. I know that for a new player to RPGs or 4th Edition, I wouldn't tell them to buy any of the books. I'd let them borrow a copy of my Rules Compendium or Player's Handbook and suggest that they get DDI for a month and build a few characters. If they took the time to create a character at Level X, X+1 and X+2, likely this would last them quite a few months in a bi-weekly campaign.

I feel that the number of hardcover sales by Paizo is generated by the fact that new players will be told that they need the books to play. I know that this is the case with Star Wars Saga Edition. While I love the system, I feel that the players will need the various books to level up their characters. While there are some computer related solutions for both Pathfinder and SWSE, I hardly believe that the sales of Heroforge + Pathfinder would be anywhere as large as DDI.

I think there are some giant leaps of logic being made here. The vast number of posts and talk I see is of people pointing future Pathfinder players to the Paizo SRD or d20pfsrd to get their feet wet. An excellent way to see the rules without spending anything. Or I also see the $10 PDF recommended frequently before the full rule book. There a numerous low cost ways to intro one to Pathfinder without pushing them straight to the hardcover core rulebook.

I know in our group we switched to Pathfinder about 9 months ago. As GM I didn't push anyone to any of the hardcover books. I pointed them to the d20pfsrd, the $10 PDF. Now I think all of them have gone and bought the core rulebook and several have purchased the APG and Ultimate Magic and the Inner Sea Campaign guide - but not due to any pushing from me as GM.

While there may be some people out there doing that I think it is a leap to say this accounts for the majority of sales. Paizo puts out a quality product and people are willing to pay for and are attracted to quality product.

 

[Wik]

Well I for one welcome our new RPG overlords.