In Defense of the Theory of Dissociated Mechanics

The essay states: "When I talk about 'dissociated mechanics', I'm talking about mechanics which have no association with the game world". Which definition of dissociation are you using?

I'm talking about the definition which emerges if you take the essay at face value, and then to the logical conclusions from there.

That the author of the essay doesn't want to make this definition plain--and in fact, goes to a great deal of trouble to obscure it--is his problem not mine. Or rather, a reflection on him, not the rest of us that have to deal with the confusion.

And as far as definitions go, "mechanics which have no association with the game world" is barely a tautology, much less a useful definition.
 

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I'm talking about the definition which emerges if you take the essay at face value, and then to the logical conclusions from there.

That the author of the essay doesn't want to make this definition plain--and in fact, goes to a great deal of trouble to obscure it--is his problem not mine. Or rather, a reflection on him, not the rest of us that have to deal with the confusion.
I don't think he purposefully obscured defintions. He just didn't articulate it properly. And if he did obscure it, how can anyone claim to draw a rigorously logical conclusion. The essay isn't a formal theorem. It's an opinion piece. It's not his problem if people read it otherwise.
 
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Thus we come full circle. At the risk of quoting the first thing I had to say in this topic (emphasis added just now):

So for me this is a marker. It isn't personal. It is a matter of practical time. Trot out the term in support of your point, and I know it is a waste of my time to continue the discussion. I'd rather it not be that way, as with Forge theory, if you can get beyond the "brain damage" parts, there is some useful discussion to be had. You can't, however, have that useful discussion with a Forge follower that hangs too tightly to that "brain damage" section.

Instead of defending the theory, it needs rescusing from its originator and its more rabid supporters.

IMO, with all due respect, I think some of you are being a little silly.

Does anybody know if
- the essay is a formal logical theorem
- you're applying rigorous logic to something that isn't
- the definition of disassociation or dissociation
- what mechanic x is (dis)associated to or with
- what is meant by an inherent property of a mechanic

...

Is this really why we're here?

Calling something a "theory" as explained in an "essay" implies a certain amount of premise, argument, conclusion.

If the author had said up front that what he was writing was a rant--which might contain a useful direction or hint--I'd feel a lot more charitable to it. If its early supporters had not immediately seen in this "theory" a giant club with which to beat 4E and anyone that liked it, I might be more inclined to doubt that reading. Since they did so see, and since TA has written nothing since to discourage them, my doubt remains unchallenged. It loses most of its use as a club if it loses any claim to an intellectual argument.

Why we're here? I've been around this merry go round several times. My experience is that most people are worth discussing things with. And because of this, we can have good discussions about this topic. But they are in spite of the "theory", not because of it.

Are you familiar with the idea of a "scourge" as a literary characterization of a character who tries to mess things up, but the attempt ends up driving others to work together to do something beneficial? (In LotR, Sauron is practically pure villain. It is practically essential to his schitck that he divide people. But Saruman has some elements of the scourge.)

You'll note that "rants" are perfectly compatible with all those points you listed. :angel:
 
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I don't think he purposefully obscured defintions. He just didn't articulate it properly. And if he did obscure it, how can anyone claim to draw a rigorously logical conclusion. The essay isn't a formal theorem. It's an opinion piece. It's not his problem if people read it otherwise.

Obviously it's some sort of problem, because we're still here discussing it. :)

Besides, the thread is named "In Defense of the Theory of Dissociated Mechanics". It's had enough impact to get name-checked a few years after he wrote it. And if it's that impactful, it's going to get run through the wringer, especially at a RPG site that likes these kind of intellectual exercises.

It's an intellectual theory, not a cute puppy. We're allowed to kick it around. :devil:
 

Thus we come full circle. At the risk of quoting the first thing I had to say in this topic (emphasis added just now):
Ya, that happens.. a lot, I think.

Why we're here? I've been around this merry go round several times. My experience is that most people are worth discussing things with. And because of this, we can have good discussions about this topic. But they are in spite of the "theory", not because of it.
Oh, I agree, it's been interesting. Addictive, actually, is a better word.

Like I told pemertron, I never paid much attention to posts that addressed the essay directly; rather much of the thread was just extrapolating from there.

I don't even remember how it started, but I somehow got dragged into it and I'm surprised that after 40-something pages, there are any direct references to the essay. It was a launching pad, that's all. I never thought the goal was to dissect the essay itself.

I guess I just feel for the guy. I know what it's like to be misinterpreted, having posts not taken at face value, forget to articulate something in just the right way that invited critique, and analogies/metaphors/hypotheticals that are not discussed on their own terms. I think give the guy a rest. He wrote an opinion piece. Nobody has to agree with it. He doesn't impinge on anybody's game. Let's move forward, no?
 

It's true that it doesn't show that you don't have your immersion disrupted by certain mechanics. But it's equally true, in my view, that it shows that the mechanics that disrupt your immersion don't have that property in any inherent way - they affect some players some ways, and other players other ways.
Thread has moved quite a ways along in between my checking in. (At least in page count...)

I'd hope it is clear that, from my own POV, I completely agree with this statement.

I did say, and still do, that 4E doesn't feel like you are in the novel. So I guess that would reasonably imply that immersion is lost. But as I have also mentioned several time now, it is easier to come to understandings when things are considered from reasonable relative positions rather than as absolute black vs white.

No game is perfect. 3E is far from an exception. I ignore things all the time in 3E that point out that the game is not a novel. And just as I can in 3E, I can in 4E.

But the things in 3E are sacrifices to practicality. Certainly if someone shows me a better mousetrap, I'll move on to that game. But the goal of 3E (at least one of the goals) was to provide the kind of game experience I desire and the places where it doesn't are due to necessity.

The designers of 4E made direct comments on multiple occasions to the effect that their design goals were different. And I accept that. 4E fans have praised many of these changes in focus as being some of the best things to every happen in gaming. (mild hyperbole, but only very mild) The point is, these justifications are not not remotely wrong, but they simply are a distinction.

The list of things in 3E that don't feel right does not include things like "so that the math works", "so that it is easier to DM", "so that it takes less prep time". The list goes on.

But I can ignore these things in 4E just as I can in 3E.

But, the bottom line is: Why should I? There is a better game that at least tries to prioritize the things I prefer. And, no doubt about it, 4E is better at the things that are its priority.

But rather than fight back and forth over black and whites of is and is not immersive, just look at the whole package and where the priorities lie.

I can ignore the patterns. But there is no good reason why I should.
 

The more I look at it seems that the Alexandrian's essay approaches dissociation from two angles:

1. Forcing a player to "construct narrative" can be dissociative, if it is not an assumed responsibility for the player to do so. If you're playing from an "Actor"/simulative point of view, it is not generally expected that the player should have to provide the narrative details. Having to stop mid-turn, and create a narrative that "makes sense" for a particular mechanical resolution could be considered "dissociative," because the player is no longer engaged in Actor stance, but Author stance. The mechanic imposes the switch in the moment of resolution, and that switch can feel jarring, depending on preferred playstyle.

That said, this POV obviously assumes a very particular style of play/group, and can hardly be considered universal--but within these parameters, it can be dissociative. Groups who assume narrative resolution have no sense of this at all, and rightfully so.

2. Mechanics that require external narrative resolution create a much higher potential for inconsistency in future rule adjudication. Obviously, pemerton, wrecan, and others have demonstrated that in some cases this is a feature, not a bug. However, I think the Alexandrian's discussion of the War Devil is most salient here--

But if you're talking about this besieged foe ability, what would the DM describe? What is the war devil actually doing when it marks an opponent?

What happens that causes the war devil's allies to gain the +2 bonus to attack rolls? Is it affecting the target or is it affecting the allies?

.....

Of course the argument can be made that such explanations can be trivially made up: A ruby beam of light shoots out of the war devil's head and strikes their target, afflicting them with a black blight. The war devil shouts horrific commands in demonic tongues to his allies, unnaturally spurring them into a frenzied bloodlust. The war devil utters a primeval curse.

These all sound pretty awesome, so what's the problem? The problem is that every single one of these is a house rule. If it's a ruby beam of light, can it be blocked by a pane of glass or a transparent wall of force? If it's a shouted command, shouldn't it be prevented by a silence spell? If it's a curse, can it be affected by a remove curse spell?

And even if you manage to craft an explanation which doesn't run afoul of mechanical questions like these, there are still logical questions to be answered in the game world. For example, is it an ability that the war devil can use without the target becoming aware of them? If the target does become aware of them, can they pinpoint the war devil's location based on its use of the ability? Do the war devil's allies need to be aware of the war devil in order to gain the bonus?

If the mechanic wasn't fundamentally dissociated -- if there was an explanation of what the mechanic was actually modeling in the game world -- the answers to these questions would be immediately apparent. And if you're slapping on fluff text in order to answer these questions, the answers will be different depending on the fluff text you apply -- and that makes the fluff text a house rule.

(Why would you want to answer these types of questions? Well, some trivial possibilities would include: The war devil has used magic to disguise himself as an ally of the PCs. The war devil is invisible. The war devil is hiding in the supernatural shadows behind the Throne of Doom and doesn't want to reveal himself... yet.)​
In this case, the choice of "narrative" for the War Devil does, and I might argue should, have an effect on future player/character choices. If a group knows that Besieged Foe has one set of causes, and how to lessen/circumvent them, it could change the entire dynamic of an encounter with a future War Devil (I'm assuming for simplicity that the Alexandrian expects us to extend this line of reasoning to many other powers/abilities, both for monsters and PCs).

At least to me, this is a type of situation that narrative resolution style is less effective at encompassing. Yes, we can situationally create a non-dissociated, agreed-upon reason of how the War Devil's power works in one circumstance. But to arbitrarily change it from encounter-to-encounter feels problematic, because now it's affecting the actual available choices of the players.

In this case, the lack of association is stunting potential player/character creativity, because they have no way of evaluating the effectiveness of the results.

This is more along the lines of what I was referring to about "rationality." In some instances, a player/character can no longer to expect to use rational cause/effect reasoning for a particular encounter approach--"Just because it worked one way last time, doesn't mean it's going to this time, even though it's the same beast."

Again, there are ways to make that association--"Well, it works differently for different War Devils." Well, how many kinds of War Devils are there in this world, anyway? (As many as the number of encounters requires, apparently).

But then it's no longer a factor of "Actor stance immersion," and more about adherence to the observed natural world--species are species because of consistency of traits.

Is a War Devil a War Devil, or is it something else?

You could still say it's just subjective preference. The level of acceptable dissociation before I throw up my hands and say, "This is just STUPID!" may be totally different than someone else's. But if there is such a thing as "inherent dissociation," it's somewhere in this concept. The refusal to apply specific narrative fluff to the War Devil negates a player's ability to creatively, rationally respond in unique ways to one in the future. Since there is no narrative, there are, by extension, no appropriate responses that can be planned, and characters are losing meaningful choices to make as a result.
 
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But I can ignore these things in 4E just as I can in 3E. But, the bottom line is: Why should I? There is a better game that at least tries to prioritize the things I prefer.
Who's that jerk telling you to play something you don't want to play?! Let's get him!!!!
 

I think the Alexandrian's discussion of the War Devil is most salient here
theAlexandrian's interpretation of War Devil suffers from a fatal flaw: characters know any effects placed on tham and the source of those effects. TheAlexandrian's "problems" with "besieged foe" involve the creature being hidden, disguised, or undercover. All of that goes out the window when the War Devil uses Besieged Foe to mark the PC. Doing that reveals that the War Devil is an enemy of the PC.

Once that's been eliminated, the war devil's marking feature is no different from the fighter's (except the war devil doesn't have to hit the target first). He's directing his menace at that PC, forcing him to split his attention.
 

2. Mechanics that require external narrative resolution create a much higher potential for inconsistency in future rule adjudication. Obviously, pemerton, wrecan, and others have demonstrated that in some cases this is a feature, not a bug. However, I think the Alexandrian's discussion of the War Devil is most salient here ...

Not only is it a feature, for some playstyles, the negatives aren't felt very much. For example, if your game is already slanted towards story that "develops in play" versus story that arises out of other elements (background, setting elements established early, etc.), then by definition you've put some work into maintaining consistency for ad hoc narrative elements. You already have tools in place to handle the things that arise.

If you already own a good shop vac, your kid doing a project that gets sawdust and nails all over your garage floor is not nearly as big an issue as your kid doing the same thing without the vac, and then running off to Ft. Lauderdale for spring break without sweeping it up. :)
 
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