In Defense of the Theory of Dissociated Mechanics

But to say it is because it can't be explained in the game world doesn't do it for me when in reality no mechanic can really be explained in the game world

Again, bull. There are a lot of rules that are reasonable abstractions of the game world. Rolling a D6, 1-3 heads, 4-6 tails, for a coin flip maps directly to the game world. It doesn't model the aerodynamics (or lack thereof) of the coin--most coins are at least a percent off 50-50, the odds it will land on the edge, the odds that it will come apart in mid-air, etc. But it does provide a playable, close, abstraction of the game world.

Then there are rules that aren't reasonable abstractions of the game world. A solo, illiterate (and non-book carrying) barbarian who has spent his recent time (last few levels) alone in the wilderness can gain skills in Knowledge (Religion). There's a difference between the two, one which matches the game world to a certain granularity and one of which doesn't.

all mechanics are attempts to abstract some very complex interactions.

Now you've got non-specific on the type of interactions. Still, many rules were not written as attempts to abstract some type of interactions. The skill rules in 3E are at best a vague handwave at simulating the learning process; they're there to be gameable.

My favorite artificial example of a disassociated mechanic would be something like:

Feat: Kill Distant Opponent
Requirements: BAB +12

A fighter without any ranged weapons may attack creatures up to 60' away with their melee weapons. Note: The fighter does not lose the weapons with this attack.

It's not trying to model anything; it's trying to give a specific power to a class without concern about how it works in the game world.

he establishes himself so that he is moving the same speed as and is proper distance in front of the puck carrier

So he moves into a position. Marking in D&D 4 doesn't force the character to move into a particular strategic position.
 

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So he moves into a position. Marking in D&D 4 doesn't force the character to move into a particular strategic position.

Well, the magically enforced ones don't require that you do anything but activate them. But then magic does seem to have a lot going for it in terms of disregarding physical laws. The Fighters' mark requires that they make an attack on someone. If it's a missile attack of the 'suppressive fire' variety, then the mechanism is obvious. If it's a melee one, then they're having to get into the correct position to do it.
 

Since the players get to decide what the in-game reasons are and whether characters can learn, explore, or observe them, no mechanic will be dissociated by this criteria unless the players choose to make it so.
True, except the entire gaming group, including the DM, gets to agree or not if they want the explanation to be added "officially" to the Fiction (like the extreme Mars Attack example). This is like a 'Credibility Test' for the explanation.

I clarifed in #11 that disassociation can be ignored only if nobody in the entire gaming group cares.

I also added #12
 

If a power that a player gets to use at their discretion is something that a character gets to use when the chance is there, then it's not an abstraction of the character's interactions with the world./snip

This is not exactly true. What is the difference between the player choosing to have an effect occur at this point, or rolling a critical hit that does exactly the same thing?

After all, the roll of a critical actually has nothing to do with the ongoing narrative in the game world. I could be advancing carefully, making a half hearted attack, and suddenly, with a lucky die roll, I've done maximum damage beyond anything I could normally do with my strongest attack.

How is a completely random die roll any more in keeping with the in game fiction than the player (obviously not the character) deciding that a critical hit will happen right now?

There is no real difference, from an in game perspective, between an event that occurs very rarely and another event that has the same effect that can only occur very rarely.
 

After all, the roll of a critical actually has nothing to do with the ongoing narrative in the game world. I could be advancing carefully, making a half hearted attack, and suddenly, with a lucky die roll, I've done maximum damage beyond anything I could normally do with my strongest attack.

How is a completely random die roll any more in keeping with the in game fiction than the player (obviously not the character) deciding that a critical hit will happen right now?
I just experienced Déjà vu

This must mean that there has been a glitch in the Matrix, forcing this thread to wrap around itself into a Möbius strip
 

TThere is no real difference, from an in game perspective, between an event that occurs very rarely and another event that has the same effect that can only occur very rarely.

But there is a huge difference between an event that occurs by chance throughout a character's life, and one that occurs exactly once per day when the player decides to use it.

Even if the player pretends that in the fictional game world/story, the Daily occurred by chance.
 

Two real world examples:...

Your examples of real-world marking are terrific. One question--are there any real-world analogs for the penalties a marked target takes if it ignores the marker?

...in previous versions of D&D the fighter could...swing his sword. Next round he could....swing his sword again...

However, this is so far off base from my experience that I can't believe folks ever even type it. I could list every single thing my fighter could do in a round in previous editions, but I don't have that kind of time. Can we just say that if this was your experience, (and I'm sorry if it was), its not a universal experience of previous editions?
 

My favorite artificial example of a disassociated mechanic would be something like:

Feat: Kill Distant Opponent
Requirements: BAB +12

A fighter without any ranged weapons may attack creatures up to 60' away with their melee weapons. Note: The fighter does not lose the weapons with this attack.

It's not trying to model anything; it's trying to give a specific power to a class without concern about how it works in the game world.

If your group agrees that a fighter has zero access to any otherworldly, supernatural, or magical abilities, then yes, this power would be dissociative.

However--the key point there is, "If your group agrees."

That's what pemerton, hussar, and wrecan were trying to hammer home to me all that time, is that in 4e, there is no pre-agreed description for 4e powers. It's narrative being constructed in the moment.

If your group has pre-determined specific mechanical restrictions before hand, then yes, dissociation is more than possible.

My issue with potential dissociation now isn't about any one particular power, most of which can be flavored to be narratively consistent.

Through the patient explanation of other posters, it seems pretty clear now that 99% of dissociations are purely subjective, based on some agreed-upon structures.

That said, that doesn't mean that some powers don't "show the cracks" a little more than others. For some powers the narration can flow easily. Some take a little more thought.

The ones that require more in-depth "thought" to reason out may not end up being dissociative in the end, but it's the process of reconciling the potential dissociation--the "looking behind the curtain"--that can have other side-effects on gameplay (i.e., break immersion).
 
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But there is a huge difference between an event that occurs by chance throughout a character's life, and one that occurs exactly once per day when the player decides to use it.

Even if the player pretends that in the fictional game world/story, the Daily occurred by chance.
I agree that there is a difference. But I think different postsers in this thread have different experiences of that difference and perhaps, therefore, different views on the nature of the difference.

Here is my go at it. I wonder how much it resembles your view of the difference!

A critical hit that is mechanically determined by chance can be interepreted, in game, in at least a couple of ways: (i) the PC struck wildly, or in the ordinary way, and got lucky; or, (ii) the PC got lucky in so far as their enemy presented a vulnerability or foolishly lowered their guard, enabling the PC to deliberately get in a lucky shot. On (i), the lucky die roll models the PC's luck. On (ii), the lucky die roll models the enemy's misfortune, and the mechanics deem that the PC exploits that misfortune without need for the player to do anything additional in terms of playing his/her PC.

Option (i) I would see as Tunnels & Trolls-y: it fits with a fairly lighthearted approach to play, and/or with playing novices or "farmboy"-type PCs, because it makes the experience of getting lucky a central part of "inhabiting" one's PC.

Option (ii) I would see as producing a somewhat more gritty and serious feel - this, I think is what Rolemaster and Runequest envisage in their critical and hit-location mechanics. As {url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/]Ron Edwards points out[/url], though, it can lead to some wonkiness from the simulationist point-of-view:

The causal sequence of task resolution in Simulationist play must be linear in time. He swings: on target or not? The other guy dodges or parries: well or badly? The weapon contacts the unit of armor + body: how hard? The armor stops some of it: how much? The remaining impact hits tissue: how deeply? With what psychological (stunning, pain) effects? With what continuing effects? All of this is settled in order . . . The few exceptions have always been accompanied by explanatory text, sometimes apologetic and sometimes blase. A good example is classic hit location, in which the characters first roll to-hit and to-parry, then hit location for anywhere on the body (RuneQuest, GURPS). Cognitively, to the Simulationist player, this requires a replay of the character's intent and action that is nearly intolerable. It often breaks down in play, either switching entirely to called shots and abandoning the location roll, or waiting on the parry roll until the hit location is known.​

If we go to the 4e daily power or "Fate Point" approach, under which "critical" (ie superior) hits are threatened and/or occur not at the whim of the dice, but when the player chooses, than the same ingame interpretations are available - the PC got lucky, or the NPC got unlucky - but there is no longer any attempt at the mechanical level to model this good or bad fortune. It occurs, instead, by rationed stipulation (ie the player spends a limited resource).

This is clearly not simulationist. Although logically it is moving into Author or Director stance, in play I think it may or may not force a break from Actor stance, depending on how sel-fconscious the player is of his/her use of the mechanic. I don't think that it need be any more disruptive than the issue, for simulationism, that Edwards identifies in relation to RQ-style mechanics. Which is to say, disruptive for some but not others.

Whether or not it disrupts Actor stance, the rationed stipulation approach will have other consequences - for example, "criticals" will tend to occur when they're needed, rather than "at random". Again, whether or not this breaks or hinders immersion will probably be highly variable from player to player and group to group. 4e adopts a range of mechanicsm to reduce this "dramatic hit only when needed" effect: there are random criticals as well as rationed powers; and there are minions, against whom every hit is a severe critical. (I've long argued that the best way of conceiving of minions is as ordinary NPCs/monsters that carry "anti-Fate" or "Unluck" points that make every hit against them a serious critical.)

Of course, because minions introduce further metagame mechanics - here, the GM is using stipulation to help determine the distribution of good/bad fortune - whether or not they help deal with the immersion issue is still going to be highly variable from group to group!
 

In fact, as I stated above, having looked at the issue more carefully, and through some patient explanation of other posters, it seems pretty clear that 99% of dissociations are purely subjective, based on some agreed-upon structures.

That said, that doesn't mean that some powers don't "show the cracks" a little more than others. For some powers the narration can flow easily. Some take a little more thought.
I agree with this.

In the recent thread on kobold's Shifty power, I suggested that the pact hag rather than the kobold offered a better starting point for those who want to argue that 4e's powers can't be given meaning within the fiction. Here is the flavour-text-to-stat-block comparison for a pact hag (MM3 pp 108-9):

Many come in search of the power, knowledge, and rituals the [pact] hag possesses. However, such things come at a price, which is named in the pacts the hag forges.

*Pact of Obedience (Aura 5): Any ally within the aura that misses with a melee attack can take 5 damage to gain a +2 power bonus to the attack roll.

*Compelling Staff (charm, weapon) . . . 1d6 + 5 damage, and the target makes a melee basic attack as a free action against a creature of the hag's choice.

*Pact of Choked Agression (charm, psychic) . . . The target is affected by a pact of choked aggression until the end of the encounter or until the hag or one of its allies attacks the target. While affected by the pact, the target takes 10 psychic damage the first time it hits a creature during each of its turns.

*Pact of Shared Agony (psychic) . . . Until the end of the encounter, while the target is within 10 squares of the hag, the target takes 10 psychic damage whenever the hag takes damage.​

Whereas I find Trick Strike pretty straightforward (at least until used with a shuriken against an ooze - but that's the sort of corner case that can generally be handled when it comes up - one reason not to worry too much in advance is you won't know what your narrative resources are until the scene is actually being resolved), these are much more opaque.

When I used a pact hag in my game, I did have a bit of a think in advance about how I wanted to run it's pacts - I decided to run them as spoken words of compulsion. I foreshadowed this by having the pact hag speak such words during a skill challenge - mechanically, this was the consequence of a failed skill check by the player of the fighter, and fictionally it involved the hag telling the fighter PC to move to a different place in the room, which he did: I spoke the instruction in character (as the NPC hag) and then, out of character, told the player of the fighter where he moved to (and that he had no choice). (Of course, not long after this, the hag pulled the lever dropping the fighter down into the spider-filled caverns below . . .)

Of course, for a GM who isn't sure how to run a pact hag, there is a simple answer: don't use one. It would be tricker if a player chose to take a Mars Attacks (or similar) power but wasn't prepared to help with any heavy lifting that might be required. And a player who wants to play immersively is probably well advised to choose powers that, if they have metagame elements, don't require a lot of active metagaming to make them work (the paladin at-will Valiant strike would be one example, the fighter's daily Brute Strike another).

I personally would be a bit annoyed if a player both chose to build a fighter with Come and Get It, and then complained every time that s/he used the power that it was ruining her suspension of disbelief! There are plenty of other 7th level fighter powers, after all.
 

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