Could Wizards ACTUALLY make MOST people happy with a new edition?

[Dannyalcatraz]

The character creation "mini-game," if you will, should be possible, absolutely, but not required. At its most basic form, D&D should be playable by newcomers in a matter of minutes, not hours. Those who want to spend hours on characters and optimization should absolutely have that capability, but I feel it should come in the form of add-ons, not the basic, core, out-of-the-box experience. Because that--again, IME--is where you lose people, both newcomers to the game and experienced gamers who just want a more streamlined experience.

This is one area where I think 3Ed/3.5Ed serves better...because each class has a nearly complete build included in amongst all the other stuff. Sure, some of them were not well done- including outright rules errors- but you could crack open the PHB and grab a complete party in minutes. 4Ed does this too, but not as thoroughly.

But I don't think either goes far enough.

IMHO, for games as complex as 3Ed-4Ed, a quick-play option doesn't need stripped-down rules, but rather a gallery of completely statted out and equipped PCs in the PHB. Many other games do this- HERO, Shadowrun and so many more- and it really does help players "get it" sooner. Heck, some people just use the provided PCs as is.

 

[gamerprinter]

Honestly, I think that D&D/Pathfinder, when creating a first level character is only a 10 minute activitiy. Pick your race, pick your class, roll your stats, make racial adjustments, roll HP (or give max at first level as we do), pick your 2 to 3 feats depending on race, pick your skills - that's it, and it only took 10 minutes.

If you're starting the PCs at much higher than 3rd level, then yeah, its going to take longer than 10 minutes.

Really, the game doesn't get complicated until you're higher in level - most starting gamers shouldn't be starting at higher than 1st level anyway.

10 minute character creation (IMO) is the norm for a 1st level character.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

10 minute character creation (IMO) is the norm for a 1st level character.

It is for me too. But I've been playing D&D for close to thirty years now. It's quick because I know what the options are. Imagine if you will that WotC dropped a completely brand new 5e at GenCon (they won't but let's just say they did). The 5e Player's Handbook gets thrust into your hand and you are told to make a character. How long would it take you? Even with the "easy-guide-character section" and even with a perfect understanding of what sacred cows you "expect" to be in there, it is still going to take you time to get your bearings. That is what the completely new player is confronted with. I think the saturation of computer game "knowledge" now-a-days helps in this process compared to when I was starting out but having so many options really lengthens the process.

Imagine: roll ability scores. Um... it looks like I'm best to be a fighter. I'll choose a sword and armor with my basic starting equipment. OK, I'm right to go. It would be interesting if at its most basic level, that was the extent of character creation for most classes. That is going to throw people into the game much quicker than with more recent editions.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[gamerprinter]

I was introduced to the game by someone already expert in it, who held my hand as I rolled up my first character. I never bought a brand new game, not knowing how to create a character, until I was already an experienced gamer (then it wasn't something I was completely uninitiated in). I didn't begin my first RPG experience by purchasing the game alone without assistance - so I'd have no idea what I was doing to begin play in the first place.

I've never met anyone who has - though I'm sure they exist. Everyone I know joined a game of experienced players who helped them into the hobby. I may be wrong, but I think that's how most people begin their trek in playing RPGs.

And I agree with you, from the stand-point of a first time gamer who doesn't have that expert to help him out - just as I say, I don't know anyone who falls into that category.

But regarding whether a game is an easy pickup for a new player is not my concern as someone looking at a new game. Simplicity is great for beginners, but I'm not a beginner, so its not something I am looking for at all. Don't give me a simple game, I don't want it.

[And really, I don't look at what WotC is doing anymore, they don't make the game I want to play anymore, so I don't even look - or care if a 5e, or non-e comes into existence. At this point, I'm only concerned at what Paizo is releasing or other PF 3pp and little else].

 

[tuxgeo]

< snip >
IMHO, for games as complex as 3Ed-4Ed, a quick-play option doesn't need stripped-down rules, but rather a gallery of completely statted out and equipped PCs in the PHB. Many other games do this- HERO, Shadowrun and so many more- and it really does help players "get it" sooner. Heck, some people just use the provided PCs as is.

Now, this I like.

Hey, WotC! Give us a scadload of prebuilds in the PHB1!
Yes, I'm talking something like 64 or 128 of them. (So, actually, I mean "Scadloads," plural.)
Complete with backstory.

No further simplification would be necessary. Newbies could learn to play from there.
(I would offer my Human Warlord as an example to use -- except that he's so idiosyncratic that most people would look at him and say, "Whu?")

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't think backgrounds would be necessary, especially given the info most PHB have given over the years. I think most people can use that fluff as a launching pad for their own ideas- the problem usually comes from translating ideas to character sheet.

I also think a 2-3 PCs per race and class would be sufficient. IOW, there might be 3 Rangers- an elf, a human and a halfling, for example, and each of those races would have another 2 builds in the book, whatever they may be.

You could probably get 1-2 per page, depending on formatting and actual game mechanics, inclusion of art, etc. Given that these are meant to aid quickstart play, I'd err on the side of caution, using a whole page and possibly including a sidebar on what the particular build does well.

 

[Pour]

I don't think backgrounds would be necessary, especially given the info most PHB have given over the years. I think most people can use that fluff as a launching pad for their own ideas- the problem usually comes from translating ideas to character sheet.

I also think a 2-3 PCs per race and class would be sufficient. IOW, there might be 3 Rangers- an elf, a human and a halfling, for example, and each of those races would have another 2 builds in the book, whatever they may be.

You could probably get 1-2 per page, depending on formatting and actual game mechanics, inclusion of art, etc. Given that these are meant to aid quickstart play, I'd err on the side of caution, using a whole page and possibly including a sidebar on what the particular build does well.

That sounds like a pretty helpful 3rd party product if someone were to make it.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I don't think backgrounds would be necessary, especially given the info most PHB have given over the years. I think most people can use that fluff as a launching pad for their own ideas- the problem usually comes from translating ideas to character sheet.

I also think a 2-3 PCs per race and class would be sufficient. IOW, there might be 3 Rangers- an elf, a human and a halfling, for example, and each of those races would have another 2 builds in the book, whatever they may be.

You could probably get 1-2 per page, depending on formatting and actual game mechanics, inclusion of art, etc. Given that these are meant to aid quickstart play, I'd err on the side of caution, using a whole page and possibly including a sidebar on what the particular build does well.

My own experience is that folks loathe pregenerated characters, except for things like convention games.

I'd give such a product a pass as well, looking for something more robust.

Though, as an optional adjunct to a more flexible game it might work, though I still would not buy it. Give me games that can stop a bullet or be used as lethal, hardcover, weapons!

The Auld Grump, strewing d4s as caltrops in his wake.....

 

[Eric Tolle]

Except of course those that prefer PDFs and can get the core rulebooks at $10 a pop.

So...I can choose to spend money to get the game materials in a format that is not as easily searchable, and that is nearly impossible to read on my smartphone? One which requires me to lug an expensive computer around? Is this a religious thing? :')

Or who simply like to support the openness Paizo has with their rulesets and show their support by purchasing their product in either paper or PDF form.

I suppose that's a valid reason. After all, sports teams make their money off of selling symbolic to display team loyalty. I simply don't like relying on fan charity as a business model, since rpg fans are notoriously fickle and tightfisted.

Spyware filled? Where did you grab that from? Show me where PCGen has been shown to be spyware filled?

Welcome to 2011. Any download is full of spyware or malware until proven safe, and that goes doubly so for executables.

Maybe PCGen's creators are trustworthy, and maybe not. Maybe they're trustworthy and they got hacked somewhere in the process. The bottom line is I'm not going to install 200 megabytes of executable programs on any system anywhere near any sensitive data. Maybe if I had an off-network dedicated game computer that would be different, but as it is, i'm not being paid to take the risk.

Anyway, this leads to another issue, something I was going to mention as part of my wishlist. 200 megabytes is still a fair chunk of memory, especially for the devices I use. You wouldn't want to operate off a smartphone, for instance, and from my perspective, that's where we should be going.

Ideally, I want a cloud-based rpg system where I can access all character and gm functions from an android or iphone, combined with smart search and communications functions. So if I'm playing at a tournament or convention, I don't need a pile of heavy books, or even an expensive laptop; I can access the online game system, and send my character to the gm. With the right functionality, changes made in the game could be updated for all players automatically.

As for a small monthly fee (i.e. subscription), depends - how many months until that monthly fee exceeds the $100. (this ignores of course that I can get started without spending anywhere near $100). What happens when I decide I don't want to pay a subscription fee? Do I lose access to the material I was using? If so - then that up front fee seems much more favorable.

Well, this IS a business model we're talking about. Now bear on mind, gamers are notoriously stingy, but even that is subject to price points. The bottom line is that gamers and people in general are willing to pay something like 5 dollars a month continually, where they complain about spending 40 dollars in one lump. In addition, charges can be as narrowly focused as desired; say, 15 cents to have access to a single class' advanced features, rather then spending the money for a full sourcebook.

As for when people don't want to spend the money for an account, we can base that on what DDI and mmorpgs already do in that situation. The account and data is kept in memory for whenever the player wants to resubscribe

The idea l is to make everything as simple and easy for the the gamer as possible. One locaation for everything, no having to muck around various sites or having to do massive downloads, no worrying about PDFs. Ideally almost everything accessible from a smartphone. DDI should be playing Pandora to Pathfinder's Napster.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My own experience is that folks loathe pregenerated characters, except for things like convention games.

My own experience is that experienced gamers loathe pregenerated characters, except for things like convention games. You and I aren't the market for this. It's for the newbies.

Make it into a softcover product like 1Ed's Rogue's Gallery or the more recent Player's Handbook Races series- $10 for 32 1st level pregens tied to the PHB stuff- and I think it could do well...if the game really is attracting new players, that is. And if it does sell well, do more based on subsequent releases.

I still think the PHBs themselves should include a few to maximize the quick play potential...probably in place of all the stuff not needed for 1st level PCs- like magic items (which really belong in the DMG, IMHO). Hell- given how many products have digital supplements of some kind, the pregens could all be "free web enhancements," included on a CD, DVD, or on a thumb drive you get with the purchase of a PHB.