Fixing the Monk Class

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ultimate Combat is out now. Does it have additional maneuvers and tricks for monks?

It should, shouldn't it? I think monks have long been identified as problem children.

They may have been identified as such, but Paizo seems unable to fix them. Every monk thing I've seen in previews and quotes looks incredibly unimpressive, at best leaving the new archetype on par with normal monk, in many cases seeming to leave you worse than a normal monk.

Part of it might be attitude. I've seen direct quotes from SKR saying that people who punch monsters shouldn't be able to be as awesome as someone who draws divine spells from the gods.

Thus far the only thing I've seen from Ultimate Combat that looks just plain good is the Dimensional Dervish feat. Lets you use Dim Door / Abundant Step to full attack, teleporting 5 or more feet between each attack. The problem? It's the 3rd feat in a chain, all of which requires having Abundant Step or the ability to use Dim Door. Which means monks can't start on it till level 13, and doesn't get dervish till level 17 (unless they make them bonus feat options, in which case he can nab the 2nd at 14 and dervish at 15, but they don't seem to have done that). This competes heavily with Cloud Step and the other "fist" feats (like touch of serenity), which monks qualify for at level 11 and are a good deal for them, since they get one use/day on all of them by virtue of being monks.

The worst part is, though, that a wizard could start on the feat chain at level 7 and have Dervish before a monk can even START on it (if the Wiz goes into Eldritch Knight, this could be a viable choice). Which feels like a slap in the face to me.

 

[TarionzCousin]

The worst part is, though, that a wizard could start on the feat chain at level 7 and have Dervish before a monk can even START on it (if the Wiz goes into Eldritch Knight, this could be a viable choice). Which feels like a slap in the face to me.

But everybody knows wizards are better at hand-to-hand fighting than monks!

 

[Systole]

I like these alterations to the monk class, with the exception of the 20th level skill. However, I freely admit that my objection is rooted more in a love of wuxia films than a concern for class balance.

In cinema, I can't think of martial arts masters that flew. I can think of many with ridiculous feats of athletic ability, but that much of that would be covered by the increased movement and 20 ranks in Acrobatics. I would rather remove the fly speed in return for a Climb speed and Water Walking.

Also, there are lots of monks with what clearly amounts to DR of some sort. However, in these cases, they have a specific weak point -- is it possible to have DR 10/critical hit?

 

[1Mac]

Monks with this can access Greater Trip and the like at the exact same level as a Fighter. It does not waive the BAB +6 requirement, merely the Int 13, Combat Expertise, and other things a monk cannot afford to obtain.

Ah. That the BAB requirements weren't waived was not clear from your original description. I'd still be careful with this, as not every "Improved" feat released in the future may behave the same way.

No, it's not sufficient. If Con isn't replaced for fort saves, it will not be a dump stat, just having a good base save is NOT enough.

I disagree that having a good base save is "not enough." What other class has awesome scores in all three saves, and why should the monk be the exception? I also disagree with the fundamental design goal of making Con a dump stat, which is not necessary for avoiding the MAD problem.

Monks really needed a lot of help. What else is bumped too high?

Discounting Wholeness of Body came to mind, but that was more an intuition than a principled objection.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I like these alterations to the monk class, with the exception of the 20th level skill. However, I freely admit that my objection is rooted more in a love of wuxia films than a concern for class balance.

In cinema, I can't think of martial arts masters that flew. I can think of many with ridiculous feats of athletic ability, but that much of that would be covered by the increased movement and 20 ranks in Acrobatics. I would rather remove the fly speed in return for a Climb speed and Water Walking.

Also, there are lots of monks with what clearly amounts to DR of some sort. However, in these cases, they have a specific weak point -- is it possible to have DR 10/critical hit?

Well, level 20 was just me tossing together a package of cool things that seemed to fit thematically, I'm open to changing it. The flight was because aside from just wire-fu, I'm also influenced by anime. While the characters in those media don't often get full out flight, their ability to pretty much at will leap up 50 ft or whatever to attack someone, slow MUCH farther than gravity (or the feather fall spell) would allow to get in multiple attacks, spring-board off the sides of skyscrapers and the like to retain their height, etc... I could've given some sort of infinite use "X rounds of flight before you need to land and can start it again" to more accurately model that. But...it's a game, and people have been able to full-out fly for 15 levels by then. Why beat around the bush? Just give 'em flight. That was my reasoning, basically.

I don't really care about changing the DR, not sure I like DR / critical hit, though. I'd rather it be more like DR that you lose if caught flatfooted to reflect being caught off-guard.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ah. That the BAB requirements weren't waived was not clear from your original description. I'd still be careful with this, as not every "Improved" feat released in the future may behave the same way.

BAB +6 is required for the Greater maneuvers, the Improved don't have a BAB requirement, iirc (or if they do, it's only because they require Power Attack or Expertise, which you need BAB +1 for). Just wanted to point out it wasn't some exception or houserule. They need by RAW BAB +6 to get the greater maneuvers, even if they have all the pre-reqs for the Improved feat. I'll be wary of new stuff, but up through Ultimate Combat it seems to hold as a fine model, at least from what I've seen so far.

I disagree that having a good base save is "not enough." What other class has awesome scores in all three saves, and why should the monk be the exception? I also disagree with the fundamental design goal of making Con a dump stat, which is not necessary for avoiding the MAD problem.

Few people would consider a wizard with an 8 wisdom to have a "good" will save. Maybe an "alright" will save, but definitely not great. And while Monk has 3 good saves, Rangers, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Bards all don't lag so far behind with 2 good saves. And every single one of those classes has spellcasting. Some of them have higher HD and BAB, too. How can MAD be avoided without making something a dump stat? Current monk needs good dex and con, high wis and str, and at least 10 in int. That's too MAD.

Discounting Wholeness of Body came to mind, but that was more an intuition than a principled objection.

Wholeness of Body was godawful before. 2 ki and a standard for healing equal to HD. Even now I'm not sure it's worth the action and ki cost until level 15, but I guess when you really need it, it's there.

 

[1Mac]

BAB +6 is required for the Greater maneuvers, the Improved don't have a BAB requirement, iirc (or if they do, it's only because they require Power Attack or Expertise, which you need BAB +1 for). Just wanted to point out it wasn't some exception or houserule.

Yes, I misunderstood. Thanks for the clarification!

Few people would consider a wizard with an 8 wisdom to have a "good" will save. Maybe an "alright" will save, but definitely not great. And while Monk has 3 good saves, Rangers, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Bards all don't lag so far behind with 2 good saves. And every single one of those classes has spellcasting. Some of them have higher HD and BAB, too.

I guess I'm saying that "alright" saves are alright. Every other class has at least one "alright" save.

It sounds like you are saying that a monk needs higher saves than anyone else because it doesn't have spellcasting or high HD. It seems like there are other sorts of features you could use than making Constitution an utterly useless ability.

How can MAD be avoided without making something a dump stat? Current monk needs good dex and con, high wis and str, and at least 10 in int. That's too MAD.

If you follow my suggestion, and make it so that Con swaps to Wisdom for HP, but not for Fort, then a monk still doesn't need Con. He has an "alright" Fortitude score and enough hit points so that he can stay standing in a fight. His Fortitude won't be as good as his Will or Reflex, but that's okay. It will still be higher than the average Wizard's or Rogue's, for example.

My biggest problem with this design decision is that it goes beyond what we normally think of as a dump stat. Even the classic Fighter with dumped Cha is losing the ability to Intimidate. A sorcerer with dumped Intelligence is giving up skill points. A Charisma fighter may not be optimized, but it's a plausible build for certain players that at least has some roleplaying benefit. With this design, you've given no reason for a monk to have good Con, ever. He loses nothing at all (except for a certain amount or resilience against Constitution-draining attacks that I think rounds down to zero in terms of overall utility) for dumping Con, and a player who happens to want a mid-to-high-Con monk will derive no benefit from it, however miniscule. Even a Charisma 8 Fighter loses more than this.

Not everyone builds their character with optimization in mind (as I think you understand), but even sub-optimal builds ought to get something unique for their concept. You've taken a fine concept (a monk who is a little beefier than Mr Miyagi) and essentially declared it off limits, by making it mechanically indistinct in all ways.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

A Monk dumping charisma, as he still needs to do, is dumping everything a Fighter is. A Fighter needs Str/Dex/Con, this Monk would need Str/Dex/Wis. Both would want at least a 10 Int. Seems pretty even to me.

And Con still isn't useless. It's still used for Endurance checks, holding breath, and the only stat that outright kills you when depleted to 0 (Monk just gets some time before it happens to make low con less dangerous, but it still happens). If you wish to multiclass, or even prestige class out, you cease to get to add wis to hit points for any of those HD. Con is still not worthless, and even a Monk 20 wouldn't want it lower than 8, 10 if they have good rolls / point buy.

I'm sorry it makes certain monk characters harder to replicate, monk's kinda an all over there class and it's not possible to make every monk-like media portrayal feasible with the one class. I think the path I took is the closest in spirit to what the monk currently is, though. He was never a very good "beefy" martial artist, because Fighter and barb simply do that better. To do that, you'd need to focus much more on str and con, replace the wis-based class features (possibly some of them becoming con or str based), get rid of the weird mystical parts, have full BAB and at least a d10 HD, etc... People have already made their own "Brawler" classes. That was never my aim.

 

[Wiseblood]

The rogue is the worst in PF monk is 2nd worst.

One quibble with your adjustments to monk though, the AC bonus. Monk defenses are great. It's their everything else that needs work.


The real problem with monk stems from the source material. Monks were inspired Kung-Fu movies where the vast majority of foes are unarmored Human foes. No one in this medium goes around punching fire breathing dragons. ( if they did they'd only do it once )

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I've found monks to be worse, and rogues easier to fix just by giving them skill modifier boosts and mostly removing the changes PF made to nerf sneak attack. But yes, Rogue is also getting a significant number of buffs in my houserules.

If you want, these are my current ideas for fixing rogues. I'm toying with some sort of high level ability to replicate epic skill check uses a limited number of times per day as well.

[sblock]Rogue (all changes also apply to Ninja):
- Gain a good will save progression.
- A Rogue gains a bonus to Initiative equal to half his Rogue level. Starting at level 8, a Rogue may choose (before rolling) to take a -10 penalty on his Initiative roll if there is a surprise round and he can act in it. By doing so, the Rogue gains a full round of actions in the surprise round. At level 16, a Rogue always gains a full round in the surprise round, without needing to take the penalty. At 20th level, a Rogue can always act in a surprise round.
- Every 3rd Rogue level, choose two skills. You gain the Skill Focus feat with these skills.
- Sneak attack works under concealment but not total concealment.

Relevant to Rogues but not directly part of the class:
- Blinking allows you to sneak attack.
- Enemies balancing without 3 Acrobatics ranks can be sneak attacked.
- You can sneak attack with splash weapons against a target you hit with the primary (not splash) damage.
- Acrobatics: Only contains Balance and Tumble (new skill called Athletics contains Jump and Climb). No longer a Barbarian class skill. Can be used to roll on a landing (DC 15) to reduce falling damage by 10 ft (you can still also jump down with the Athletics skill, also). Without 3 Acrobatics ranks, if you stand in an area that requires balance checks, you lose your dexterity and dodge bonuses to AC. Tumble DCs follow 3.5's rules (ie, base DC 15 and so forth, the enemy's CMD is irrelevant, etc...).
- Weapon Finesse: Any weapon that can be finessed can use the wielder's dexterity modifier instead of strength on attack rolls without need of this feat. This feat allows a creature to add his dexterity to damage with any light weapon or weapon with the finesse property instead of strength. You do not gain extra damage from wielding a weapon two-handed as you would with strength, and your damage is still modified by any strength penalty you may have (in addition to adding your dexterity modifier).
[/sblock]

EDIT: I disagree with you on the AC. Monk has great touch AC, but especially early on, his AC lags other melee characters. Combined with his d8 HD, this makes him very squishy. Say you have a Monk with 16 Wis and 14 dex (and 16 str, and a 14 con if this is not my houseruled monk...poor MAD monks...). You have an AC of 15. Any melee character has better AC than you. And while they're getting +1 armor and possibly shield for 1000 gp each, you're waiting till level 4 before yours actually goes up a point. Yes, he can benefit from mage armor, but that's not something you can expect the first few levels.

My change barely even bumps the progression much, it's just a small boost to try and help the monk keep up. Current progression caps at +5, mine caps at +7.