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Could Wizards ACTUALLY make MOST people happy with a new edition?

Honestly, this is where the reasoning of pemerton and Balesir is breaking down for me... if you have to simulate an internally consistent world based on inconsistent things... it seems impossible to have a simulationist game... this is why I keep stressing the difference between realism vs. simulationism because I feel they are conflating the two.
I don't know, I'm still confused what is the larger point to be honest. I DO see value in trying to simulate an internally consistent world. The emphasis is on trying. It will never be perfect, but the result will be more simulationist than if you don't try at all. It's all a matter of degree.
 

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"Could WotC actually make most people happy with a new edition?"

What if...staying consistent with the comment that a new edition cycle should be 8-10 years, WotC announces that they are beginning a 5-year open desin & playtest for 5E. A transparent process incorporating direct feedback from fans. The next four years of product continue the 4E line. The fifth year sees the sales of in-print Beta rules.

I'm not sure most people would be happy with the final version of the game, but they might be happy to have been a part of the process. If the responses from the dedicated fans that participate in the open are kept transparent, even those that don't like the end product might still be happy with the new edition as the product of the majority's input.
 

pemerton gets a totally different playstyle from his ecxperiences with 4e than I have witnessed in gameday, encounters, Chris Perkins podcasts, etc.
That's a little bit cheeky! I'm not 100% sure about Gameday, but Encounters is a semi-one-shot delve format expressly designed to be little more than a tactical skirmish episode with some colour.

I'm sure BryonD gets a pretty different experience out of his 3E game from the old 3E dungeon delves that WotC used to run, but that's hardly surprising either.

Chris Perkins' podcasts - at least the ones I've seen, which involved the Robot Chicken people - were also one shots with pregen PCs and inexperienced players, and apparently designed and run as a tactical skirmish with colour. Much like the vibe I got from the ENworld mods playing D&D with Gygax.

Read Chris Perkins' account of his ongoing campaign on the WotC website. It strikes me as pretty different from the podcasts, and much closer to the game I'm running.
 

I don't know, I'm still confused what is the larger point to be honest. I DO see value in trying to simulate an internally consistent world. The emphasis is on trying. It will never be perfect, but the result will be more simulationist than if you don't try at all. It's all a matter of degree.

I agree that it is definitely a matter of degrees...

but when talking about simulating worlds that are not internally-consistent (which are most S&S worlds and a great many HF worlds as well) how do you ever have a game that is simulationist in the way permeton and Balesir describe it? It seems then it would be more important to simulate a world that enforces the tropes and genre conceits. This is something which Balesir seems to hint at in his Pendragon example (especially with his reference to passions mechanics)... which are a mechanics that would seem to lead to play that is more representative of Arthurian stories, but I'm not sure why "passion mechanics" for Arthurian stories are better than "High level heroes not being threatened by low-level threats" for S&S stories?
 

That's a little bit cheeky! I'm not 100% sure about Gameday, but Encounters is a semi-one-shot delve format expressly designed to be little more than a tactical skirmish episode with some colour.

I'm sure BryonD gets a pretty different experience out of his 3E game from the old 3E dungeon delves that WotC used to run, but that's hardly surprising either.

Chris Perkins' podcasts - at least the ones I've seen, which involved the Robot Chicken people - were also one shots with pregen PCs and inexperienced players, and apparently designed and run as a tactical skirmish with colour. Much like the vibe I got from the ENworld mods playing D&D with Gygax.

Read Chris Perkins' account of his ongoing campaign on the WotC website. It strikes me as pretty different from the podcasts, and much closer to the game I'm running.

I wasn't trying to be cheeky... but moreso saying that I have come around to believing that 4e is capable of being run in the narrativist style you run it in. However there is ample evidence (and from the designers themselves) including actual play that 4e is often run and promoted as pushing an almost purely Gamist playstyle, and appears to be by all accounts satisfying to those who play it that way.

I actually find Encounters to perhaps be the most important determiner of 4e's playstyle going forward. It is often new players first exsposure to a 4e game and as you said it is often little more than a series of tactical encounters... yet this is how the company has chosen to market their game. Even Lair Assault, the new play experience for 4e, is being marketed as a challenging contest for optimizers and buildmasters... in other words competitive play.
 

I wasn't trying to be cheeky
Fair enough!

However there is ample evidence (and from the designers themselves) including actual play that 4e is often run and promoted as pushing an almost purely Gamist playstyle

<snip>

Even Lair Assault, the new play experience for 4e, is being marketed as a challenging contest for optimizers and buildmasters... in other words competitive play.
I'm not in any way shocked by the idea of gamist 4e. I continue to feel that it doesn't lend itself especially well to hardcore gamism (see a couple of posts by me and Balesir upthread) but Balesir has made it clear to me how it can support a "softer" gamism of friendly competition to have the coolest build for a situation, or to pull off the best move.

(Two points of contrast with eg Gygaxian D&D and T&T: no individual XP awards; and treasure as an entitlement for play rather than a reward for good or lucky play.)

What strikes me about Encounters and Lair Assault (as I understand them) is that the fiction seems to play so little role. My impression of it is that it is barely more than colour on the tactical skirmish play.

I would envisage those sorts of players subscribing to DDI, so they can build their PCs, but not necessarily running campaigns in the traditional sense.

That said, there may be countervailing forces in favour of the fiction. The Vampire from HoS is said to be very popular, for example. It brings a lot of fictional baggage with it. I wonder if that comes into play in an Encounters game?
 

I actually find Encounters to perhaps be the most important determiner of 4e's playstyle going forward. It is often new players first exsposure to a 4e game and as you said it is often little more than a series of tactical encounters... yet this is how the company has chosen to market their game. Even Lair Assault, the new play experience for 4e, is being marketed as a challenging contest for optimizers and buildmasters... in other words competitive play.

What strikes me about Encounters and Lair Assault (as I understand them) is that the fiction seems to play so little role. My impression of it is that it is barely more than colour on the tactical skirmish play.

I've heard the same from my players that do Encounters. I think WotC has paid attention these comments. One of the new announcements regarded a season of Encounters focusing more on roleplaying. It'll be interesting to hear what my friends think of it.
 

What strikes me about Encounters and Lair Assault (as I understand them) is that the fiction seems to play so little role. My impression of it is that it is barely more than colour on the tactical skirmish play.

I would envisage those sorts of players subscribing to DDI, so they can build their PCs, but not necessarily running campaigns in the traditional sense.

That said, there may be countervailing forces in favour of the fiction. The Vampire from HoS is said to be very popular, for example. It brings a lot of fictional baggage with it. I wonder if that comes into play in an Encounters game?


I've heard the same from my players that do Encounters. I think WotC has paid attention these comments. One of the new announcements regarded a season of Encounters focusing more on roleplaying. It'll be interesting to hear what my friends think of it.

Well I did Gameday last Saturday, where I ran a game. If you want to read about how that happened and/or my experiences there you can check out this post... http://www.enworld.org/forum/5646943-post24.html ... I had a good time but I didn't feel like 4e in and of itself, or the adventure they provided pushed towads the type of play I had heard permeton and a few others talk about 4e having.... so I improved and ad-libbed and modified alot of the adventure to try and get it somewhere near there.



I also decided to take my son to the first Encounters session yesterday, and what I observed was that two of the three tables could be boiled down to a tactically driven competition between the DM's and players with read aloud text from the module being most of the color or flavor and all attack description/flavor being "I attack with [insert power name].

Now the saving grace was that my son and I, along with 3 others got a DM who told us upfront that she wasn't used to running official WotC events and she, unlike the other two tables, started the game by asking us to tell her a little about our characters (which consisted of an Eladrin Bladesinger, Dragonborn Slayer, Half-Orc Slayer, Human Knight and Human Hexblade.). Honestly I was shocked, but also glad that she had decided to scrap the mold most were running it in and do her own thing, it really helped us get a feel for the characters as opposed to the builds and roles in our party.

She gave us a little time to roleplay in the market square with some of the NPC's... but cut it short because the table next to us had shot through the roleplaying and were already on the combat (even though they started after us) and we could hear everything that was about to happen in the adventure. So into combat we went. Yet even in combat she wouldn't let us get away with just saying the power name, she asked us to describe what was happning. I'm hoping she'll come back next week, even though she said she was only subbing for a DM who couldn't make it. i also hope the themes we took will play a bigger part in the adventure as we progress but in the first encounter they weren't relevant, except in givig us extra cool bits to tackle encounters with, at all. So yeah outside of a DM willing to actively work outside WotC's own structure... I would say your impressions are pretty accurate.

I guess this is why I, and perhaps many others, find it so hard to look at 4e as being anything but designed for Gamist focused tactical skirmish play, with a light coating of roleplaying... I mean fans of 4e swear it's insulting when you claim this is what 4e is, but in all honesty this is exactly how the company that owns and created it chooses to market it, and with Lair assault it's no longer an excuse of keeping it simple for new players... it's the chosen style, by the company, of official play for experienced players of 4e as well.
 

I'm late coming to this thread, so excuse me if I'm commenting on some discussions that happened pages back.

On Mike Mearls' articles discussing GNS theory:

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (The Many Faces of D&D)

He kinda did back in June.


On 4E being gamist, specifically the argument that 4E isn't a game that can be 'lost':

Somebody made the comment that 4E isn't exactly gamist as its difficult to die. The way I see it, death isn't the consequence of failure in 4E. I look at 4E more as a WWE Wrestling match rather than a boxing match. In a boxing match, two competitors face each other, one wins, one loses. In a WWE Wrestling match, the outcome has already been decided, but success or failure isn't based on competition but on entertaining the crowd. In 4E, the players and DM would function as both the wrestlers and the crowd, and the goal isn't so much to be challenging as it is to be entertaining and interesting. I don't see gamist as necessarily having to be either competitive or non-cooperative.

On new players and existing players:

There is one major point of conflict between new and existing players of a game, and that is the depth of the player rules. To appeal to new players, a game needs to allow them to quickly start playing the game on an even footing with existing players. Existing players, however, seem to demand an ever increasing amount of depth. More character options, more fiddly bits, more setting lore, more everything. 3E, 4E and Pathfinder put new players at a disadvantage, as a first time player isn't going to have the grasp of the depth of the rules. I don't even think Core-only 3E really accomplished this. 4E might have done a decent job at that at launch, but was quickly buried in crunch. Essentials was an attempt to create this, but wasn't as appealing as base 4E(with Fighters as deep as Wizards) and got a violently conflicted reception from the established 4E crowd. It feels more complete than 4E did at launch, but is missing a lot of what makes 4E what it is, like the aforementioned Fighter with just as many powers as the Wizard. Now, the modular concept introduced by Mearls might be able to accomplish this, but it will fail if no existing players use it in a newbie friendly fashion, and the big complex deep version becomes the default. I'm also not convinced that trying to make a single game cater to both is practical or wise.

On a simple core with optional add-on complexity:

The danger with this is that the core is tediously boring and uninspiring. Its going to be the first thing people reach for, and it needs to sell people on the game. If it is made too generic to facilitate the add-ons, people are going to tune it out. Something like this has worked in the past, as in White Wolf's base World of Darkness book and the individual games like Vampire, Mage, ect. but in that case the focus was on the add-ons, not the base system, and there was some history backing that up. I'm not sure D&D could pull that off.

On the schism in the D&D community:

I really think there are some irreconcilable differences, the biggest of which is the slaughtering of sacred cows. The 4E community has had some violently negative reactions to 4E bringing back some sacred cows(Magic Missile, Fighters who spam basic attacks). I don't really see any middle ground on this. I'm starting to think WotC might be better off with two D&Ds, one going forward and one keeping the traditions alive(a D&D Classic, if you will).
 

Wow, it was actually more tolerable when entitled nerds were pronouncing 3.X the best ever and that Gygax loved 3.X and would have hated 4E and that only WotC is in it for the money than now when a bunch of pretentious pseudo-intellectuals want to use fancy terms to pigeonhole their pretend games into different terms that are actually descriptions of playstyle and not mechanics for the most part.

I have hated the whole GSN Theory crap ever since it came out. It is used largely for cases like what this thread has turned into. Useless navel-gazing. I don't' find GSN useful at all. I don't think of my gaming in terms like Gamist or Simulationist. It's just crap.

I thought 3.5 was WAY too early and just a cash grab. I didn't invest very heavily in anything 3.5 onward, I didn't even buy the new PHB. Instead I gave my money to other like Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. I've been playing since Basic (24 years now) and I've played every version of D&D and a bunch of other game systems too. I could care less if a RPG is claiming to try and simulate whatever, I just care about if my friends and I have fun at the table. 4E has been a lot of fun for me, my experiences during 3E were mostly good (altho making higher level characters was a nuisance), but I had some very bad experiences during 3.5.

When 4E came out, I was glad to se some of the sacred cows made into hamburger. Traditional Vancian casting was gone, alignments were simplified and had no more mechanical important (unless you were a Divine character, and then it mattered a bit), combat became interesting again. Friends of mine who previously wouldn't be caught dead playing a Wizard were now quite happy to. Fighters had something to do that didn't feel like it boiled down to "I swing my sword at it".

Do I think the next version of D&D will make everyone happy? Please. This is the same site that has a guy who is best known for pushing OD&D as the One True Version :) Is there math in need of fixing in 4E (among other things)? Yes. Is it overall a great game that lets my friends and I have a lot of fun when we get to sit at the table together every 2 weeks? Yer darn tootin'! :)

Play what makes you happy, no edition will please everyone and it shouldn't try to. Pathfinder doesn't please me so I don't play it. Taking what I disliked about 3.5 and ramping the power level was NOT what I had in mind for a new edition. 3E was a change. 4E was a change. Change is good. I played Human Wizards and Halfling Rogues in 2E and 3E. I'm still playing them in 4E, plus lots of other fun stuff. I play w/a different DM, but he's still able to tell the stories he wants to tell. I suppose the GSN crew would label our current campaign Narrativist b/c we kew in advance we were going to play Revenge of the Giants and so everyone in the party could speak Giant and most had some extra benefits against Large or larger creatures. Like my Halfling Daggermaster Rogue. :)

Sorry, I read just over 7 pages and couldn't take anymore GSN w/o saying something.
 

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