D&D 5E cancelled 5e announcement at Gencon??? Anyone know anything about this?

TheAuldGrump

First Post
I think I posted something similar to this upthread. To cure the 15-minute adventuring day by raising the stakes presupposes that the players (i) care about the stakes, and (ii) have the mechanical capacity to respond.

But if (i) obtains, then as VB points out problems arise - if the players really are invested in saving the princess, are you as GM really going to kill her offscreen in order to "punish" your players for nova-ing their spellcasters? In a certain sort of sandbox approach, that might be tenable. But there are a number of other approaches for which it is not - for which there is an expectation that, if the players care about it, then their PCs will be part of it.
Yes, I would kill her off screen. Sandbox or no sandbox.

Solutions that I have seen players come up with is that the wizard rests and prepares while the rest of the group continues on, rejoining when prepared.

Not as much fun as joining in the antics, but possible, so the players have done it when needed, but are much more likely to save their spells instead.

I am less likely to kill the princess 'on screen' when the other players are keeping an eye on things, waiting to step in if needed. Though not always... if the ceremony has to be performed at Midnight then the ceremony will be at Midnight. The wizard should have planned better.

If I feel that the players were counting on my generosity when the wizard decided to use up all his spells... stabbity. If the wizard used up lots of spells in a battle that was fierce, ferocious, and could have swung either way... then I am more forgiving. But, typically, such encounters tend to be well after the 15 minute mark, when spells are partially used and HP are at less than full.

Think of it as the Diehard Effect.


Die Hard Effect by TheAuldGrump, on Flickr

I am willing to stretch things if the players are giving it their all, not if they want to saunter their way to victory.

The Auld Grump
 

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Mournblade94

Adventurer
&D play.

But in 3E even low level casters can easily make wands and scrolls. Wands will tend to ensure they don't run out of spells. And scrolls will tend to ensure that they have ready access to a much wider range of spells than those memorised.

Does either of you use any particular techniques to control the proliferation of wands and scrolls in your games?

It really depended on the adventure. First of all, not every mage that played in my game took item creation feats. Clerics almost never did. Even when they do, there is treasure as a limiting factor. Mages needed the funds to scribe spells in spellbooks, create items, buy items, it was a drag on their finances. Where the fighter could save up for his +4 sword, the mages funds could be taxed if he did nothing but create wands.

The wand problem can be a serious problem, but again I seem to maintain that control somehow. Very few of the games I ran in store were long campaigns, so there the item creation is not much of an issue. My home games tended to be multiyear campaigns, but I had nobody abuse the item creation feats.

If I was playing a mage I would not want to tax my resources on knock scrolls when I had a friend in the party that could pick locks.
 

Hussar's been holding onto that tightly for years. He hears what he wants to hear and ignores everything else.

The only thing you need in order for the 15MAD/early-onset-LFQW not to be a problem is a mildly reactive world which isn't put on PAUSE whenever the players aren't looking at it.

Adventures with imposed time-based deadlines are one way to achieve a reactive world, but other methods include: (snip long list of other options)
I mean, sure, having time pressure makes for good adventures. No argument here. But, if every adventure must have these pressures and the only reason for that is to counter the mechanics, then aren't the mechanics dictating a single way of playing?

This was so absurd I almost assumed you were intentionally engaging in self-parody. But then the smiley face never came.

I rest my case: Hussar hears what he wants to hear. He ignores everything else. Anyone who thinks they can actually have a discussion with him on this topic is deluding themselves.

Beginning of the End has ended ~ Plane Sailing
 
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gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
Regarding endlessly putting time pressures, threats preventing rests and other encounter pacing (guaranteed multiple encounters within the hour) techniques that teach a wizard not to Nova - if that is what you are trying to do as a GM to alter this effect...

Some of your arguments is that if this happens constantly, then the situation becomes contrived. Of course that is true. However, once the wizard learns not to Nova, then you don't have to constantly put time pressures, etc into the game, the wizard doesn't Nova anymore, so no problem anymore.

Periodically change the pace and introduce new pressure threats as it best fits the storyline, but don't make it a constant thing - variety makes things interesting.

Once the wizard learns that it is to the benefit of the party to pace his spellcasting to most appropriate incidents as they come to play, and save some of his combat and utility magic to pace with combat and with the varying encounters - the Nova problem no longer exists, disparity lessens; problem solved.
 


pemerton

Legend
Once the wizard learns that it is to the benefit of the party to pace his spellcasting to most appropriate incidents as they come to play, and save some of his combat and utility magic to pace with combat and with the varying encounters - the Nova problem no longer exists, disparity lessens; problem solved.
Sure - if you want this sort of play experience.

Another option, obviously, is to change the way wizard PCs resources work, so that nova/rest is no longer a mechanical option.

I don't see any reason to think that either approach is inherently more suitable for a fantasy RPG, or that either approach is inherently "narrow" or "simplistic" compared to the other.
 

Pentius

First Post
All in all, I think I'd be more forgiving if the 3.5 dmg warned Dms about the 15mwd, but it just doesn't. I turn to the part about adventure building, and the closest it gets is two lines.

"•Multiple combat encounters are more difficult to win without a
fighter, a barbarian, a ranger, or a paladin in the party.
•Multiple combat encounters are more difficult to survive with-
out a cleric in the party." -3.5 DMG, page 50.

That kinda almost addresses the issue, but not really. Before that, the DMG talks about static, site-based adventures, saying:

"Sometimes a site-based adventure takes place at a static location.
The map depicts an old ruin filled with monsters, shows where
the ancient treasures are located within the ruin, where the traps
or danger spots are located, and so on. The PCs can arrive at this
location at any time, stay as long as they desire, leave whenever
they want, and come back later to find the site pretty much the
same as they left it (although more monsters may have taken up
residence, or a few may have wandered off; maybe a trap has been
triggered by a monster and no longer threatens the PCs, or a trap
the PCs previously triggered has been reset).
Designing a static site-based adventure is fairly easy. You don’t
have to think much about how the residents of the various encounter
areas interact, and each encounter area need only be designed with
the most immediate implications in mind—namely,
what happens when the PCs arrive?"
~3.5 DMG, page 47.

This is presented as an equal option to time-pressured adventures. There's no real advice about the differing power of casters in each type of adventure. Each individual DM is left to a trial by fire. Some pass, and either have no issue with the 15mwd, or learn to avoid it. Some just don't.
 

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]

You responded with two interesting points that I wanted to address.

1. I was somewhat presupposing combat and roleplaying were not entirely overlapping (I wouldn't go so far as to say exclusive though). I think I still do. There is certainly some roleplaying in combat. In more interesting storylines there's even more (like when a villain switches sides or a pc decides to provide mercy, etc etc). However, I think that most of the richer roleplaying happens out of combat.

In my experience combat causes three things to occur that inhibit roleplaying (not attacking 4e here, this is from my 2e and 3e experience mainly):
a.) Focus on powers/abilities/numbers like hp, etc...Focus on the rules.
b.) Turn based play.
c.) Lack of meaningful character decisions.

a.) Focus on the rules is an effective way to engage in combat, and being effective in the life or death component of a game is rewarded by virtue of not losing. I've observed my players shift from roleplaying in an immersive sense to strategic gaming where they are moving pieces, calculating strategy, moving in absurd ways to avoid attacks of opportunity, etc. I don't blame them. That's not to say this happens every combat or even throughout an entire combat. But it does happen. It does not happen when they are chatting with the local lord or arguing for their lives at a trial.

b.) Turn based play. This one's really simple. Out of combat people feel more simultaneously engaged. They can act at any point in the "round" and, in fact, there may not be "rounds" per se. In combat, most of the time, the only meaningful actions are interrupts and those you take on your turn. Beyond that it's merely shouting a word or two here and there. Again, not always. Sometimes a player might engage in some lengthy roleplaying in combat, even while others are rolling, but this is more the exception than the rule.

c.) Lack of meaningful character decisions. Of course the decisions you make in combat affect life and death. That's not what I'm referring to here. I'm referring to character decisions. Give two players the exact same character sheet, but with totally different backstories and personalities. In combat, assuming they have similar strategies, you won't really notice a difference. Out of combat, you will see them make a number of very different decisions on how to approach NPCs, problems, what to do, where to go, etc.



2.) How would I fix it?

The thing I probably like least in gaming is when there is a "combat mode" and a "noncombat mode". I hate the idea of "encounter powers", and I don't think 4e did enough to get rid of dailies. I'd do two things to reduce both the nova and the fighter/wizard disparity.

a.) Get rid of "dailies". I've never liked them. I was perfectly happy playing 3e warlocks and binders to get my "magic" on. This is not to say that there can't be buildup or "big powers" for exciting, nova like moments. 4e does this nicely with action points. Resting actually can eliminate these, while pushing on grants more. I don't like that you can only use one per combat (that fits with my dislike of "combat mode"). Wizard spellcasting could use a more mana driven resource similar to these, and all classes could benefit from them to a degree, as they do now in 4e, but perhaps in different ways.

b.) Give everyone cool things to do out of combat. Note this is the opposite of what 4e has done, which is to somewhat strip out of combat for all classes, and give fighters more interesting things to do in combat. I'll agree that in 3e fighters had little on their sheets that made them cool in or out of combat, while wizards had plenty for both.

If I were designing 5e, I'd start watching movies. What cool things do "fighters" do in regards to noncombat roleplaying? I'd give fighters more skill points for things like intimidate, give them a reason to put points in charisma (because what movie action hero has a low charisma?), and in general provide a focus on awesome stuff out of combat. But these out of combat things would be useful/usable in combat on occasion as well (just like a wizard casting feather fall or hold portal).

Off the top of my head, a short list of fighter abilities, and the source:

John McClane (Die Hard): Intuition. He stays ahead of the bad guys, and he generally wins by figuring them out, even though outnumbered. This is also great in roleplaying senses. Is someone lying? Where are the bad guys likely to go next?

Doc Holliday (Tombstone): Gambling. Not just with cards, but with his own life, and taking risks in all sorts of social situations. Perhaps a luck meter or luck based powers would be appropriate here.

Ash (Army of Darkness): Inventiveness. His hand went bad. So he cut it off. Naturally. That was from the Evil Deads. In AoD he fashions a pneumatic metal hand. He uses high school chemistry to make bombs. He and the smith work to trick out his car into a helicopter death machine. Here the power would be some sort of science based or alchemy based abilites. But he's not awesome for these reasons, they're mostly how he fights. His quips and brash attitude are what make him awesome. That and his ability to form an army despite being a goof. These are charisma powers. I'm not entirely sure how they'd play out, but they sort of could fit with inventiveness. He takes the situation at hand, no matter how bizzare, and comes up with a quick and dirty solution. He's like a charming MacGyver, now that I think about it. I would want those sorts of powers both in and out of combat if I played a fighter modeled after Ash.

I guess that what I'd want to see would be for fighters to have powers (and perhaps a massive revamp of the skill system). However, I don't want mainly combat powers, which is the direction things have moved in across all editions. I want lots of cool out of combat powers for fighters as well.

I also want the line dividing combat and non combat to be erased.
 


IronWolf

blank
How is this not a badwrongfun post? If you don't follow the BOTE way of gaming, you're not playing the game right?

I know this wasn't directed to me, but I want to state up front you can play the game however you want and use whatever system you want. Plenty of systems for everyone to be playing the game they want to play.

Hussar said:
I mean, sure, having time pressure makes for good adventures. No argument here. But, if every adventure must have these pressures and the only reason for that is to counter the mechanics, then aren't the mechanics dictating a single way of playing?

I would suggest going back and reading some of Wicht's and my posts again during the portion of the thread we covered this. Every adventure *doesn't* need to have a time element to it. The PCs generally aren't always going to know how time sensitive things are. Sometimes it will be obvious, other times it will not. That unknown factor is what allows you to sprinkle in the time sensitive type adventures to help add that unknown factor (or some of the other plot options that I believe BotE listed).

I cannot speak for how others run the game, but my worlds continue in motion not to counter casters, but to keep the world interesting (again, purely my opinion as GM and player). I like it when the world moves forward while we, the PCs, make decisions. Or sometimes we choose to investigate one particular plot of many only to find that the two we did not address moved forward and in some case are more dire or possibly even solved themselves.

So - no, every adventure does not have to be time sensitive and no, this world in motion theory is not dictated by mechanics but by a desire for world verisimilitude.

Hussar said:
There are all sorts of scenarios - exploration scenarios being a prime example, where time pressure doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Agreed.

Hussar said:
I guess that just makes me a bad DM.

Nope. We play a very subjective game and there are lots of ways to play it. People don't have to be wrong here. People just need to play what they find is fun and leave others to have their fun.
 

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