D&D 5E cancelled 5e announcement at Gencon??? Anyone know anything about this?

[Hussar]

Another thought occurs to me on the whole playstyle vs systemic problem issue.

Why is it that this only comes up with 3e D&D? I mean, if it was a playstyle issue, then shouldn't people who have this issue have this issue with every game they play? After all, resource conservation and tracking is hardly unique to 3e D&D, it happens in many RPG's.

Yet, I never hear Vampire players complaining about this issue. I've recently been system hopping for the past couple of years and tried a bunch and, funily enough, this only came up in 3e. (well 3.5 to be very specific)

If this was all down to my playstyle, shouldn't I have had the same issues playing something like Savage Worlds, which, honestly, isn't that far from a d20 system.

How about those who play other d20 systems as well? Isn't one of the basic premises of E6 that casters are an issue? What about d20 Star Wars? I'm honestly not that familiar with the system, I've never played or read it. Did people who played that system encounter the same issues, presuming they had these issues in 3.5 D&D?

Now, if, as GamerPrinter says, the issue is hard coded into the mechanics, then we're down to different solutions. That's fine. I got no problems with that. And certainly what Gamer Printer and others (Wicht, and others, sorry, it's late and I'm not going to go back and fact check names) have said will solve this issue.

But, if I have to adopt a specific playstyle to resolve a mechanical issue, I'm not really sure I want to play that system. I think I'd rather play a system that allows me to choose whatever playstyle fits a particular campaign at a particular time. I like the flexibility.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Another thought occurs to me on the whole playstyle vs systemic problem issue.

Why is it that this only comes up with 3e D&D? I mean, if it was a playstyle issue, then shouldn't people who have this issue have this issue with every game they play? After all, resource conservation and tracking is hardly unique to 3e D&D, it happens in many RPG's.

It might be hard to cross into other games, because I have seen people adopt different playstyles with widely different games. But I agree that I've only had this problem with 3.5D&D. The problem has not occurred for me in OD&D, BD&D, 1E, 2E, 3.0* or 4E. My playstyle has remained relatively the same** over the 28 years I've DMed, so I think you pose a good question.

*IMO this was only because we didn't hit the same level of supplements as we did in 3.5. It would have eventually resulted in the same issue if WotC never released 3.5.

**Including the use of each new shiny supplement as it arrive on our bookshelves.

 

[Umbran]

I mean, if it was a playstyle issue, then shouldn't people who have this issue have this issue with every game they play?

I don't think so. I am pretty sure folks generally don't actually use exactly the same playstyle across all game systems. There may be some similarities in style, but I suspect most of us do a lot of adapting to fit the style of the game we are playing. Perhaps more than we realize.

But, if I have to adopt a specific playstyle to resolve a mechanical issue, I'm not really sure I want to play that system. I think I'd rather play a system that allows me to choose whatever playstyle fits a particular campaign at a particular time. I like the flexibility.

But that requires a game to be all things to all people. There's something to flexibility, but if you try to be too flexible, you end up with a game that highly resembles a wet noodle. Games, to me, are best done al dente

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

What about d20 Star Wars?

It depends on the system.

Saga Edition, IMO, lacks enough healing resources to have more than a 15-minute adventuring day routinely. The remainder of your resources, however, are effectively per-encounter resources, so there's little pressure to have a 15-minute adventuring day.

d20 Revised ties Force-usage to your current HP, and thereby pushes fairly hard towards the nova-retreat-rest paradigm (or, alternatively, towards the never-use-the-Force-retreat-anyway-rest paradigm). This is complicated by fairly common critical hits bypassing the hit point system nigh-entirely, making combat even swingier than it otherwise would have been.

In either system, depending on how you read things, two Jedi with Vital Transfer (IIRC the power's name) can provide effectively infinite downtime healing given enough of a breather, which makes 15-minute adventuring days meaningless. (EDIT: This "feature" has a particularly Eric's Grandma-unfriendly name.)

 

[BryonD]

Yes. Critical portion bolded above.

Right, because we were talking ABOUT YOU here. So bolding that doesn't change anything.

None. That's why during my later run of 3.5 I looked for ways to solve this unacceptable problem in ways that satisfied everyone invilved in my game. I did not find a satisfactory method for us. The method that you used to avoid the issue and others used to fix it could be satisfactory to your preferences while being completely unsatsfactory for ours.

You are not following the train of the conversation here.

You complained about how it you were being accused of "doing it wrong". I pointed out that, by your own statements some actions avoid the problem completely and yet YOUR actions failed to avoid an extreme example of the problem. So this is entirely your own words about your self.

You don't want BMX Bandit and in my game there is no BMX Bandit. Problem solved. Now you are waving a wand and declaring that the solution in my game would be completely unsatisfactory for you. Which is silly on multiple levels. First, the problem is GONE. What is there to be unsatisfactory? Second, how could you POSSIBLY think that the solution would be a problem for you? What have I said that would provide the slightest suggestion of that? This is as perfect an example of an "I can't get it, therefore with no other knowledge I declare it bad" sour grapes.

shrug

 

[Mournblade94]

I would suggest going back and reading some of Wicht's and my posts again during the portion of the thread we covered this. Every adventure *doesn't* need to have a time element to it. The PCs generally aren't always going to know how time sensitive things are. Sometimes it will be obvious, other times it will not. That unknown factor is what allows you to sprinkle in the time sensitive type adventures to help add that unknown factor (or some of the other plot options that I believe BotE listed).

I would agree. It seems some points are being purposefully ignored.

I cannot speak for how others run the game, but my worlds continue in motion not to counter casters, but to keep the world interesting (again, purely my opinion as GM and player). I like it when the world moves forward while we, the PCs, make decisions. Or sometimes we choose to investigate one particular plot of many only to find that the two we did not address moved forward and in some case are more dire or possibly even solved themselves.

So - no, every adventure does not have to be time sensitive and no, this world in motion theory is not dictated by mechanics but by a desire for world verisimilitude.

I bolded those parts. That is exactly why my campaign world is time sensitive. In fact I have a rather dumb houserule in my game, that on a characters birthday they get a +1 luck bonus on saves. (a reward from the gods for surviving another year. I am not suggesting it, but my players goofily look forward to it). I like to see the time progression in the campaign. I honestly beleive that it is cool for Players to see when they were level 1, how long they have been adventuring, and how the world has changed because of them (or not )in thier time.

I propose that it is PERHAPS because of my time keeping and eye for versimilitude that I have not run into the disparity problem. That does not imply that you cannot run into the problem enforcing time keeping, and I am not implying that playing in a static universe is BAD.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Another thought occurs to me on the whole playstyle vs systemic problem issue.

Why is it that this only comes up with 3e D&D? I mean, if it was a playstyle issue, then shouldn't people who have this issue have this issue with every game they play? After all, resource conservation and tracking is hardly unique to 3e D&D, it happens in many RPG's.

I heard remarkably similar complaints for:
AD&D
2e AD&D
Runequest
Call of Cthulhu

So, umm, yeah... it does happen in other games with consumable character resources. Spells, spell points, it does not matter. 3e just has enough players that the grumbling becomes more noticeable.

For the nonce, I never noticed it when either playing or running those games any more than I have for 3e, except for that one game. Maybe it is symptomatic of the same folks who prod the floor with a 10' pole every time they move? Who expect monsters to wait quietly until the PCs reach them?

Again, being overly cautious is likely to cause problems even as being overly incautious.

If the players come to expect a dynamic, as opposed to static, world then they are likely to feel time pressure, even if there is none. For me this is worth doing in its own right - there is no reason not to do it with 4e, it can make for a more enjoyable game. Having monsters just sitting around playing pinochle until the PCs show up does not sound like much fun to me, regardless of system.

The Auld Grump

 

[gamerprinter]

Now, if, as GamerPrinter says, the issue is hard coded into the mechanics, then we're down to different solutions. That's fine. I got no problems with that. And certainly what Gamer Printer and others (Wicht, and others, sorry, it's late and I'm not going to go back and fact check names) have said will solve this issue.

But, if I have to adopt a specific playstyle to resolve a mechanical issue, I'm not really sure I want to play that system. I think I'd rather play a system that allows me to choose whatever playstyle fits a particular campaign at a particular time. I like the flexibility.

I never said it was hard-coded, in fact, I'll go as far as saying until I started visiting RPG forums, I've never heard of the 15 minute adventuring day, or a disparity between casters and martials classes. The concept seemed alien to me.

In learning that such a condition exists in some games, I'm using my best judgement on how the game should be played to avoid those issues.

But I don't see what I do as coming up with some solution to avoid the problem, as it is how I've always played D&D (1e, 2e, 3x and Pathfinder). I have known no other way. The concept of Nova and rest had never happened in my games. I wasn't aware that others playing differently encountered this problem at all.

I don't think a system necessarily leads to such problems - only certain playstyles achieve that. So I don't see it has a problem hard-coded in 3x, rather 'hard-coded' to those that play a 'nova and rest' playstyle only. Which I don't see as the default way to play any game, let alone 3x.

I don't mean to say, if you 'nova and rest' in your playstyle, that you're playing the game wrong - however, by playing that way, you are destined to engender disparity and problems.

Its not the system, its the playstyle only.

 

[Mournblade94]

I have no idea what I was talking about there.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

To quote a silly/stupid/funny movie: "And then?" What if your players don't care that she was killed?

Ask them who they are, and what have they done with my real players.

Following the interrogation I track down the place where the vegetative pods have been hidden, and burn out the infestation. Damned pod people. (Hey, a silly movie gets a silly movie.)

I have never had that problem. And I have been running games this way since '81. Somehow... I don't think that it will be a problem.

The Auld Grump