Legends & Lore: The Loyal Opposition

Actually, I agree with you on this. To clarify, I should have said:

My talks with people who have read sports science suggests that initial training quickly allows people to correctly harness their innate ability (STR,DEX, ...) for a particular application/skill. In game/maths terms you go from one side of the bell curve to the other for standard task (so say - 25% to 75% of success).

So, if you are taught the basics of weightlifting there will be a weight, based on your innate strength, that you will now be able to lift whilst before you couldn't. There won't be a weight you have a 50/50 chance of lifting. I absolutely agree that this won't have changed how far you can for example throw a ball usning your STR.

As for gaming, I'm a professional physicist so in some ways professionally a simulationist - but my gaming is gettting more and more narrativist (ToC, DERPG).

Sounds good. And gaming wise I lean toward narrativist too.

I should have added before though, and I don't think Mearls specifically mentioned it, but Ability checks should be able to auto succeed also if equivalent to a certain rank. That would remove that failure chance for something one should be able to do every time.

Cheers.:)
 

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We cannot write down all the rules of the real world so we cannot write down the rules for your game. Your game cannot exist if it aims to have a rule for everything a character may want to do.
If the game world tries to be, or be a close analogue to, the "real" world, sure. Then, a different approach is needed - I suggest shared "world authorship". But, for specifically Gaming worlds, sure it's possible - for the parts of the game world that relates to the in-game challenges. D&D 4E actually does a comprehensive job in this area - even if the non-combat parts of the rules lack "sparkle" they are clear and (potentially) comprehensive.

The thing you are describing is a board game.
No, the thing I am describing is a Gamist-fiocussed roleplaying game. If you don't like (or don't think you would like) such a game, fair enough, but edition war speak is hardly called for.

I believe RPGs are intrinsically different as they have the DM not as an opposing player but as an interpreter of how to deal with all the options the players can think of beyond a list of rule-sanctioned moves.
You are free to believe what you like, but I have played roleplaying games that need - in fact are improved by having - no GM. A GM is "required" only for certain, actually fairly narrow, modes of play. Try Universalis, sometime. It's not "traditional", of course, and it's far from "Gamist", but it's a very servicable roleplaying game, and yet it has no GM at all.

BTW, as a corollary of my first point. We all exist in the RW without fully understanding its rules - so it's something our characters should be able to cope with too.
Sure, we don't fully understand the rules - but how many times have you examined a task that you are skilled at and had no idea at all what the outcome of your actions to complete that task might be? We all have at least a "sense" of how the world works - even if it is unclear on the finer details and uncertain about definite outcomes (an element added by dice in many roleplaying games).
 

I believe RPGs are intrinsically different as they have the DM not as an opposing player but as an interpreter of how to deal with all the options the players can think of beyond a list of rule-sanctioned moves.

GM less, A board game? No. Different? yes. DM games better? In my opinion, most definitely. I despise GM less games and shared world games (where players take part in the creation).
 

No, the thing I am describing is a Gamist-fiocussed roleplaying game. If you don't like (or don't think you would like) such a game, fair enough, but edition war speak is hardly called for.

I don't know if I agree that gamist implies lack of any DM input.

In any case I agree with those who've said one of the greatest strengths of traditional RPGs is the DM, and along with it the abi;lity to bend/break/shift rules when needed to enhance the experience.
 

Going back to abilities scores and skills, here is another.

My ex-roommate did gymnastics in high school. From what I heard from others, he was pretty good. However, the guy, by his own admission, was otherwise a big clutz, as in tripping over his own feet, when off the mat.
 

I don't know if I agree that gamist implies lack of any DM input.
Hmm, I don't mean to imply that the GM has no part to play - indeed, it's the only focus that actually needs a GM/DM. What I'm trying to say is that it's not the GM's task to judge the worth of a player's plan or idea in the middle of play. Sure, there may be corner cases where an action unconsidered by the rules must be adjudicated, but in general I find Gamist play much smoother if the system, by and large, takes care of assessing the outcome of character actions. Having the outcome of specific courses of action GM decided in Gamist play leads to "gaming the GM" - which I find to be a very unsatisfactory mode of play.

This stands in direct contrast to other foci of play, where judgement on aesthetic grounds (to further the desired focus of play - be that creation of a story or exploration of a setting, situation or characters) is often better suited. Exploration of a situation set in a close analogue to the "real" world, for example, is generally best dealt with by using the knowledge, experience and world view of all at the table to inform the outcomes of in-game events, as I see it.
 

The thing you are describing is a board game. I believe RPGs are intrinsically different as they have the DM not as an opposing player but as an interpreter of how to deal with all the options the players can think of beyond a list of rule-sanctioned moves.

Look up Kriegsspiel. What you're describing is a characteristic of those. So hardly something intrinsic to RPGs.
 


Hmm, I don't mean to imply that the GM has no part to play - indeed, it's the only focus that actually needs a GM/DM. What I'm trying to say is that it's not the GM's task to judge the worth of a player's plan or idea in the middle of play. Sure, there may be corner cases where an action unconsidered by the rules must be adjudicated, but in general I find Gamist play much smoother if the system, by and large, takes care of assessing the outcome of character actions. Having the outcome of specific courses of action GM decided in Gamist play leads to "gaming the GM" - which I find to be a very unsatisfactory mode of play.

This stands in direct contrast to other foci of play, where judgement on aesthetic grounds (to further the desired focus of play - be that creation of a story or exploration of a setting, situation or characters) is often better suited. Exploration of a situation set in a close analogue to the "real" world, for example, is generally best dealt with by using the knowledge, experience and world view of all at the table to inform the outcomes of in-game events, as I see it.
Not to be contrary, but it sounds like you are contradicting yourself. In your view, when is the system making assessments of outcomes and when is the real person DMing making these judgements? Also, how do players explore a setting, situation, or character when they are the creators of these? This stands in opposition to a DM where these things exist outside of the players. The latter here sounds like playing "Guess what I'm thinking?" with one's self.
 

Not to be contrary, but it sounds like you are contradicting yourself.
Well, my opinions apply to actual play in the "real" world, so the situation is practical, rather than absolute, but I don't think there is any basic contradiction, no.

The GM setting scenarios and background in advance, according to a set of guidelines and design objectives, is one thing - the GM judging the worthiness of a player's approach during actual play is another. In theory, the scenario design can happen during play - often known as "winging it" - and be quite acceptable within my proposed approach, but it is very easy to slip into "judgement" mode while doing this, deliberately making the challenge to the character easier or harder depending on your opinion of his or her ideas. This is definitely an example of "GM skill", but not one I see often explicitly stated.

In your view, when is the system making assessments of outcomes and when is the real person DMing making these judgements?
When the chance of success for a given situation is explicitly given by the system, then the system is making the assessment. This applies whether the assessment is based on the setting/game world design ("it's a rocky wall with handholds, so it's DC 15") or on metagame concerns ("this is a 7th level Moderate challenge, so the DC is 22"). If the GM makes up a DC based purely on what a player says their character will (attempt to) do, then the GM is making the judgement, not on the game or world situation, but on the feasibility/good sense/coolness of the idea the player has proposed.

Obviously, there is a "grey area", here. If the player decides that their character will try something not envisaged by either the system nor the GM's design of the "encounter space", then a defined difficulty may not be available. Where absence of player input to the outcome is important (generally, where there is some competitive "game" element among the players), a system can handle this via "catch all" default difficulties and player resources (such as "action points") to keep the outcome "system decided". Where player input is not an issue, the difficulty can simply be set by agreement, vote or whatever among the players (such as the system in Primetime Adventures). I find either of these options better than the GM being judge, jury and executioner all rolled into one.

Also, how do players explore a setting, situation, or character when they are the creators of these?
Have you never sat and reflected on some situation, exploring the ramifications of it? Players who have experienced "immersive character play" often talk of "suddenly realising that the character would do X"; they have just discovered something about that character. Exploring our own imaginations - either alone or with friends - is a pastime with a long and storied (literally!) history.

Try Universalis for a game that makes such collective exploration explicit in its systems.

This stands in opposition to a DM where these things exist outside of the players.
If the entire thing is exclusively in the GM's imagination and no one else's, I don't think it's even roleplaying! The situation, setting and action must, at a minimum, be communicated to the players so that they may "see" it in their imaginations. Even then, we have only reached the baseline of "storytelling"; to make it "roleplaying" the players must have some input into the resolution of the imaginary situation. Thus, I don't see any roleplaying circumstance where the imagined action exists wholly "outside of the players" - what we are discussing is thus not "whether or not" but simply a question of degree.

The latter here sounds like playing "Guess what I'm thinking?" with one's self.
If by "oneself" you mean a gestalt of all the players present (including the GM), then yes, maybe that is so.
 
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