When to give PCs the reins?

[Wik]

Okay. So even in videogames that describe themselves as "sandboxy", there is usually a period of railroading for the first little bit, wherein the player learns the ropes. This is a situation where player choice is minimal, and the few choices that have a resolution that will affect future play are still rather limited.

I believe there's a reason for this - to give a player the ability to drastically change what's going to happen in the gameplay while s/he is still learning the fundamentals about the game itself is, ultimately, unfair. Players need to know WHAT it is they're changing, and the rules of the setting itself, before they can be expected to make informed choices. Therefore, the games should, to be fair, start as railroads.

Now, apply this concept to RPGs. In current conversations about "Sandbox vs. Railroad", there is an assumption that players in a sandbox should be given full ability to see the consequences of their decisions, right out of the gate. Essentially, the PCs have the ability to make decisions that will influence future events in the game, even though the players themselves might not know enough to make informed decisions. Granted, they'll be low-level (presumeably), so they're not going to kill kings or start wars in this learning period, but I still believe it's unfair to let those PCs make uninformed choices and then forcing the game to cleave to those decisions.

In other words, I'm coming to the paradoxical conclusion that for a sandbox to really work and be fair for the PCs, you must start it off as a railroad. Now, my question is, how long should the PCs be on this railroad before the rails end and they find themselves in the box? One encounter? One session? One character level? One month of play?

And do you start it as a tight railroad and gradually increase the level of character choice/consequence, or should you instead just have the rails end abrubtly?

Or am I completely wrong, and RPGs can be complete sandboxes from the get-go while still being fair to PCs?

 

[Crothian]

Why are the PCs making uninformed choices? Are the players just making upo characters and not learning anything of the world?

 

[prosfilaes]

Okay. So even in videogames that describe themselves as "sandboxy", there is usually a period of railroading for the first little bit, wherein the player learns the ropes. This is a situation where player choice is minimal, and the few choices that have a resolution that will affect future play are still rather limited.

I believe there's a reason for this - to give a player the ability to drastically change what's going to happen in the gameplay while s/he is still learning the fundamentals about the game itself is, ultimately, unfair. Players need to know WHAT it is they're changing, and the rules of the setting itself, before they can be expected to make informed choices. Therefore, the games should, to be fair, start as railroads.

[...]

Or am I completely wrong, and RPGs can be complete sandboxes from the get-go while still being fair to PCs?

For one, starting out sandbox is completely realistic, and people will understand it for that. We all have stuff that we did when we were young and stupid that a little bit of wisdom would have prevented.

Secondly, first-level characters can't do much unless you feed them the situations. If you were a hellion in high-school, you can always move to another town where nobody remembers that. If the PCs make some bad choices at the start, you can usually let them walk away from them in a sandbox.

 

[Wik]

Why are the PCs making uninformed choices? Are the players just making upo characters and not learning anything of the world?

Well, it depends. Unless I spend hours and hours describing the setting of Dark Sun to you, you might not realize just how much defiling is hated by the populace - until you cast a spell in the town square, and get chased out of town.

Likewise, if my campaign has a noble warrior sergeant-type race, unless I go out of my way describing how awesome these guys are to you before PC Gen, I'm kind of responsible if you decide to attack him right off the bat thinking "he's just like all the other mooks".

 

[Lanefan]

When to give PCs the reins?

Whenever they're ready to take 'em. Sometimes this happens right out of the gate, other times it never happens at all; I suspect most campaigns fall somewhere between these. But once they start going places and doing things without (or in spite of) your direction, they're ready.

Until then, you have to drive.

Lanefan

 

[Wik]

When to give PCs the reins?

Whenever they're ready to take 'em. Sometimes this happens right out of the gate, other times it never happens at all; I suspect most campaigns fall somewhere between these. But once they start going places and doing things without (or in spite of) your direction, they're ready.

Until then, you have to drive.

Lanefan

Best, most succint advice ever.

I need to be a fly on the wall at one of your games, ha.

 

[Crothian]

Well, it depends. Unless I spend hours and hours describing the setting of Dark Sun to you, you might not realize just how much defiling is hated by the populace - until you cast a spell in the town square, and get chased out of town.

Likewise, if my campaign has a noble warrior sergeant-type race, unless I go out of my way describing how awesome these guys are to you before PC Gen, I'm kind of responsible if you decide to attack him right off the bat thinking "he's just like all the other mooks".

Players should have some basic setting information befroe the game starts. Defiling bad in Darksun is part of that basic knowledge. Also, if you are running a published setting then the players should have a chance to read up on the setting on their own.

But not all information has to be given to them ahead of time. There is nothing wrong with telling them things as they encounter or hear about them. If they encounter a tough DM made race that the players know nothing about but the characters would then you tell them as you describe the NPC.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Well, it depends. Unless I spend hours and hours describing the setting of Dark Sun to you, you might not realize just how much defiling is hated by the populace - until you cast a spell in the town square, and get chased out of town.

Likewise, if my campaign has a noble warrior sergeant-type race, unless I go out of my way describing how awesome these guys are to you before PC Gen, I'm kind of responsible if you decide to attack him right off the bat thinking "he's just like all the other mooks".

If this happened in my game, when the player announced the course of action, I would make sure to give them the any information the PCs would reasonably have in this circumstance, and allow them to reconsider.

 

[The Shaman]

At "giddyup!"

 

[S'mon]

It's good to start a campaign with a smallish newbie dungeon or similar where the PCs start off together with a clear goal and can learn the ropes for a session or two. The intro dungeons in the old Moldvay & Mentzer Basic sets are good models for this.