Silent Suggestion

[livywnka]

Hi people. I'm delurking to ask if the clever minds of this board could shed some light on the suggestion spell for me. I tried searching for related topics and found this thread on that discusses the same topic. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

If you cast a suggestion or use bardic performance to make a suggestion, do you have to speak the suggested activity, or is the suggestion implanted in the mind of the subject as part of the spell? How about if you cast a suggestion modified by Silent Spell? The text of the bardic performance ability says it "relies on audible components", but does this mean you must speak the suggested activity or simply that you can't use dance alone to activate the ability? Will the subject in any case know that it was you who implanted the suggestion?

More directly concerning one of my characters: Is there any way you could think of that would allow a caster to implant suggestions without revealing who is casting the spell? The character is a 6th-level bard with ranks in dance and song. I have access to all the official Paizo Pathfinder books as well as the online SRD, and 3.5 content and homebrew may be allowed given careful examination.

Thanks for your help.

 

[El Mahdi]

I agree with everything in that post. Silent Spell means the casting the spell itself is silent, but the suggestion still has to be communicated in a way that the target can understand. I think a whisper would be fine (and definitely fits the dramatic representation of such spells in fantasy movies and literature - like Wormtongue whispering into King Theoden's ear in the Two Towers). I'm also fine with the suggestion being written on a note (in a language the target can understand obviously, and the target must be able to read), and I'm also okay with Telepathy being used.

I definitely don't think it's game breaking. Whispering should be okay even with a normal use of the spell. A note, although not specifically covered, seems a fair trade-off for using a Silent Spell (hey, you took the Feat, you should be able to benefit from it, and you aren't getting something for nothing). Using Telepathy is doing it at the cost of two spells, it's creative, and I'd allow it in a game.

As to a Bardic Performance to deliver a suggestion, the Silent Spell Feat is inapplicable. The feat specifically says "Bard Spells cannot be affected by this Feat." I would rule that this applies to Bardic Performances also, especially as the Bardic Performance: Suggestion has the same requirements as the Suggestion Spell (except for Material) and is still a language dependent effect.

From the Pathfinder Bard Class:

Every bard spell has a verbal component (song, recitation, or music). - p. 35​

If a bardic performance has audible components, the
targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance
to have any effect, and such performances are language​

dependent. - p. 36

Suggestion ​

​

​

is an enchantment (compulsion), mind affecting, language dependent ability and relies on audible components. - p. 37​

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

More directly concerning one of my characters: Is there any way you could think of that would allow a caster to implant suggestions without revealing who is casting the spell? The character is a 6th-level bard with ranks in dance and song. I have access to all the official Paizo Pathfinder books as well as the online SRD, and 3.5 content and homebrew may be allowed given careful examination.

Thanks for your help.

Spellsong feat from Ultimate Magic allows you to conceal the casting of a spell within a Bardic Performance. As a swift action you combine the casting time of the spell with a Perform check. Observers use a Perception or Sense Motive check vs. your Perform check to realize that you've cast the spell.

 

[Noir le Lotus]

More directly concerning one of my characters: Is there any way you could think of that would allow a caster to implant suggestions without revealing who is casting the spell? The character is a 6th-level bard with ranks in dance and song. I have access to all the official Paizo Pathfinder books as well as the online SRD, and 3.5 content and homebrew may be allowed given careful examination.

The only solution to your problem would be to grant some kind of telepathy to your character. The Mindbender PrC (Complete Arcana ?) grants this power at level 1.

 

[Dingo333]

I am afraid that you can not use silent spell with bard spells at all

As for the ability, as a DM, I would allow you to use Perform Dance to activate suggestion but I would add a good amount to the DC of your perform check (+5-10 depending on the situation like how many people were watching) and add a bonus to the saving throw to resist it. Dancing would be a difficult way to communicate the suggestion and have it understood clearly.

As per RAW, I can not see a way to do this without speaking the suggestion (bluff and/or stealth to do it without being noticed) or using telepathy

PS. @ El Mahdi: You can not use Metamagic Feats on spell like abilities anyway. So silent spell being unuseable on bard spells is a mute point

 

[livywnka]

Ahh, El Mahdi, you're so right! I'd forgotten about that limitation with bard spells. Thanks for pointing it out. I'll scratch out Silent Spell for the 5th level feat.

The Spellsong feat could be useful for this character, and it's Paizo as well so it should be easy to pick. I suppose spells like silent image, hideous laughter and possibly ventriloquism would work well with it, unless ventriloquism has the same caveat as suggestion, and you must mouth the words. Would you recommend actually taking suggestion as a spell to make use of the feat?

Getting telepathy is a very cool idea and should help in nudging people in the direction I want them to go without being too obvious. It does seem like a bit of a sledgehammer though. But I suppose that it should be good as long as I use it appropriately (and make sure not to take the Mindsight feat as well). I'll ask about it.

Thanks for the replies. You've given me some great ideas.

 

[TheClone]

[...]or simply that you can't use dance alone to activate the ability? [...]

I'll dance my spell in your face, Mr. Goblin! I cast "Waldorf education"!