Story Elements in RPGs...

[Janx]

I think you might be confusing theme and plot?

Could be. I didn't see any examples from you on your ideas of themes, or i would have worded mine to your metric.

I based the game on a show. The show had themes. Because of all the background stuff the show had and my game emulated, I was able to use some of the same themes which led to stories being told.

Like how the Ship's mage, a cool-aid drinking member of the Circle of Magic who would have informed on and betrayed the crew IF they ordered her to, later turned to supporting the underground (water?) railroad to help unregistered wizards escape.

I didn't think she'd do that, so I got 2 things out of it. A great story AND completely driven by player decision and investment in the events of the game leading to a surprising yet fitting outcome.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I don't think having story structure elements like a main theme implies a railroad (at least anymore then giving your character an alignment does.)

It doesn't have to. I don't think having a theme is a problem. But actually stucturing an adventure the way a story is structured or forcing these elements into play is something that doesn't interest me. I've just found when GMs try to control things like the pacing, try to frame things like a story, my character tends to become less important. I feel like I am there as a prop in the GMs story. By all means borrow cool elements from stories. You can take tropes, flavor, etc without railroading. I would just prefer the story emerge naturally during play.

 

[Janx]

Most of the campaigns I've been in the past decade or so have had a PC whose background formed a major portion of the campaign's plot structure (at least for a major story arc within the campaign), but the PC in question didn't really seem to be the focus...at least, not to the point where other PCs were eclipsed.

I have never played or run a game where the PCs had to fetch some magic macguffin to defeat the BBEG. Or decided to go explore a random dungeon and make continual trips to empty it out of loot.

Stuff that happens has always been a complication in the pursuit of our goals or problems that arose as natural intersections to our interests.

 

[Barastrondo]

Maybe I'm being too cynical, but I think if someone tried this, the most likely result would be a descent into pastiche, maybe even self-parody. And if someone worked really hard to avoid that trap, they'd probably go too far the other way into the kind of analysis that would make some other, more appropriately Conan-ish character, murder the first character.

Potentially. But then again, Game of Thrones is a fairly deconstructive take on the heroic epic. Twisting around expectations people have of doorstopper fantasy epics, backing them up with reasons that are familiar to us as modern readers -- it does these things. It could be done pretty badly to be sure, but it could also be done pretty straight-faced with a like-minded group (assuming nobody at the table considers sword and sorcery a sacred and inviolate institution, f'rinstance).

In some ways I saw similar things happen with Mage: the Ascension. The default game has similar themes of corruptive civilization and seeking a purer, older, more spiritual way, but there were always fans who asked "Wait, the 'bad guys' in this game are the ones promoting globalized communication and penicillin?" Deconstruction of the Technocracy/Traditions conflict quickly followed, symbols were rearranged, and equally impressive chronicles came about.

RPGs can be used to explore scholarly questions, but the interesting bit is that they frequently come about due not to a lofty intention ahead of time, but due to actions in the game. A game that never intended to explore the question of liberty vs. security might find itself hip-deep in the question after the players kill a bunch of slavers and free some slaves, just because somebody asks "Okay, what comes next for these people?" -- and the group genuinely is interested in the answer.

 

[S'mon]

My PC is my main character. Your PC is your main character.

Simples.

 

[Fox Lee]

I'm not sure I agree... I'm struggling to think of even an ensemble cast where there isn't a "main" character...

Baccano! A series where the subject of who deserves to be the "main" character is such a debatable topic that the narrator/framing device characters actually discuss it briefly in the opening.

A more recent work by the same author, Durarara!, seems to have a distinct main character in the first season, but he gets almost no screen time in the second season, where there really is no discernable lead role.

To be a bit less obtuse than recent anime, many cartoons avoid the single main character trope pretty well, usually by following the "character of the episode" model. Let's take X-Men: Evolution as an example - fans of the franchise probably expect Cyclops and Jean Grey to be the "mainest" characters, but it isn't really so. The focus shifts easily from episode to episode.

 

[Scribble]

I think "theme" is a pretty broad word, and can include a lot of different things.

Could be. I didn't see any examples from you on your ideas of themes, or i would have worded mine to your metric.

I should have made it clearer from the beginning I was using theme in the literary sense. I mentioned it to Shaman, but I can see how it was easily lost, so the fault is mine.

I think the kind of general situational-background theme Janx emphasized works better for an RPG than pushing a "moral of the story" literary theme.

I can accept that as an opinion, but I guess I'm more interested in discussing the ramifications of literary theme as a major component in RPG campaigns, similar to how plot seems to be a major component in a lot of games.

How would you ensure a story with such a particular message? How would that add to, rather than detract from the fun of the game?

In the way I'm envisioning it would be a combination of setting/plot and character builds and backgrounds.

The theme would be an overall concept with the characters being different takes on it possibly? What would interest me (I think) is what happens when the different takes emerge and conflict.


As I see it now people make backgrounds and motivations/personalities that interest them, and every so often one or two react with each other, and it bolsters role playing.

I'm wondering if a strong theme from the start would allow people to "latch onto" something, and build these interactions better.

For instance if one of your character traits is, "I believe in the strong bond of friendship" but no one else has any real view on this... Ok, it's a trait you can work with, but what happens if someone else in the group feels "brotherhood is overrated, every man for himself?"

Now we have conflict, and conflict leads to good stories. (And I would also say good role playing.)

 

[Scribble]

It doesn't have to. I don't think having a theme is a problem. But actually stucturing an adventure the way a story is structured or forcing these elements into play is something that doesn't interest me. I've just found when GMs try to control things like the pacing, try to frame things like a story, my character tends to become less important. I feel like I am there as a prop in the GMs story. By all means borrow cool elements from stories. You can take tropes, flavor, etc without railroading. I would just prefer the story emerge naturally during play.

Oh I don't dissagree... Bad DMing is bad DMing.

As someone else pointed out earlier (Umbran maybe?) like any other "art" form, RPGs require the different elements to be used in their own unique ways.

I guess I'm trying to think about how to use theme in RPGs, as it seems it's not used as much as some of the other story elements (plot, setting, style, and character.) And I think character needs exploration as well.

 

[Umbran]

I can accept that as an opinion, but I guess I'm more interested in discussing the ramifications of literary theme as a major component in RPG campaigns, similar to how plot seems to be a major component in a lot of games.

I think you've already noted that "literary" themes are rather strongly in the hands of the player, rather than the GM.

For example, consider "redemption" as a theme. The GM cannot force that theme. The player must choose to have a character, either in-game or in backstory, do bad things and have a desire to redeem themselves. The player probably needs GM assistance to explore the theme, but the player has to accept the theme.

I'm wondering if a strong theme from the start would allow people to "latch onto" something, and build these interactions better.

It might, with some groups.

One issue you'll hit is much the same as with genre themes - maybe the player's not so into that particular theme to begin with. I'm not going to be a great player for a "PIRATES!!!" game if I'm not really into pirates. Same goes for any other theme.

Also, if you set a strong theme to start with, you will probably tend to work with blinders on, and fail to notice themes that are emerging organically in play that you could take advantage of. If one character has themes of "Humanity" and another of "Redemption" you can have a synergy that would be different than if they both had "Humanity".

I think this is one reason why genre-themes may be more successful for RPGs. With a genre come some standard literary themes that are commonly successfully explored in the genre. Players will tend to pick them up, and you have some assurance the combinations will work out well.

So, I think setting strong literary themes at start less a, "good GMs should do this," and more a, "This is a technique you might want to try on occasion."

 

[Scribble]

I think you've already noted that "literary" themes are rather strongly in the hands of the player, rather than the GM.

For example, consider "redemption" as a theme. The GM cannot force that theme. The player must choose to have a character, either in-game or in backstory, do bad things and have a desire to redeem themselves. The player probably needs GM assistance to explore the theme, but the player has to accept the theme.

Isn't that true with all aspects of the game though? As a DM I can set up an adventure, but ultimately it's up to the players if they want to partake.

I guess I' missing why if say the DM sets up the plot, Takhasis is trying to take over the world, and the players buy in with characters built around that adventure path, the DM can't also set up some themes that the players can also draw on?

So, I think setting strong literary themes at start less a, "good GMs should do this," and more a, "This is a technique you might want to try on occasion."

Oh... Jeez was I coming off that way? I didn't mean to be if I was- I'm trying to determine myself if such a thing is useful, and if so how.

I try to play the devils advocate and argue opinions in order to understand, so I apologize if it was coming off as this is HOW you SHOULD do something...