Adaptiv Tank
- Thread starter Jack7
- Start date
As I understand it, tanks put out an amazing amount of heat while in operation. In order to be a thermal chameleon, (and say, look like a snowbank when in reality the thing is extremely hot) that heat has to go somewhere other than the skin of the vehicle or the immediate environment. So, I wonder where they put it...
El Mahdi
Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Absolutely! An M-1 Abrams has a turbine engine that puts out massive amounts of heat.
Another consideration is the installion of reactive armor panels. The panels are going to limit or eliminate the advantage of the chameleon skin (unless the surface of the reactive armor also has the chameleon skin - an extremely expensive prospect for a part of the tank that's meant to blow up...)
Also, mitigating thermal detection is nice and helps in a pure tank vs. tank environment. But in any future large scale tank battles, the U.S. has made using the Joint Stars aircraft an integral part of their battle plans. Joint Stars doesn't rely on IR to detect tanks, but instead uses a multi-axis doppler radar. Chameleon skin won't help at all with an E-8 in orbit over the battlefield.
30 years ago maybe Chameleon skin could have transformed tank combat. Today, it's only one additional facet of tank combat strategy, and far from a game changer. I think it's more attractive to countries that don't expect to face a tank battle involving an aerial detection platform, or expect smaller unit or one-on-one battles. For the United States, it's probably not worth the money.
If you're thinking that US tanks are mostly going to engage with the tanks of other major powers (the classics like China and Russia), then I'd agree. But at the moment, it seems like the major threat to our tanks are guys with man-carried anti-tank weapons, against whom this might well make a difference.
El Mahdi
Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Very few anti-tank weapons are heat-seeking. Even the majority of air-launched anti-tank missiles are either camera guided or laser guided. Heat seekers for air to ground attack aren't very common (I honestly can't thing of any).
And for the most part, man-portable anti-tank weapons are line-of-sight weapons without guidance - specifically RPG's with dual explosive systems for penetrating armor. Most vehicle mounted anti-tank missiles are Wire-Guided with a visible light video camera, though some systems have cameras that can work in infra-red - but wire-guided weapons aren't self targeting, there's a man watching a TV screen steering it.
Also, Chameleon tanks would still look like a tank in NVG and normal visual systems (non-IR). So in a conflict like Iraq or Afghanistan, having IR Chameleon armor wouldn't help at all. I wouldn't expect too many insurgents have IR imaging capability. NVG would be much more prevalent. Since they're identifiying targets visually, a vehicle that appears like a car or just invisible in IR, but is still obviously a tank when viewed through NVG, is going to get shot at just the same. In daylight it's not even a concern as insurgents are just going to identify it visually anyways.
This kind of IR masking is really only good for avoiding initial discovery* from an enemy using IR imaging only, with a ruse that's likely not to hold up for very long. It might buy the tank a few extra seconds in certain situations, but most times it would just be a non-factor. Though in Tank combat, a few extra seconds can be the difference between life and death, but the certain situations where it actually gains you those few extra seconds would likely be so rare as to almost never be a factor.
Considering that this system is likely very expensive, I just don't see it being worth it. I can see it being much more useful as a visual Friend-or-Foe identification system, than as a type of effective concealment.
*Of course though, for forces not in a vehicle (on foot), the sound of the tank would give it away long before detecting it by IR would be necessary. Tanks aren't exactly very stealthy.
And for the most part, man-portable anti-tank weapons are line-of-sight weapons without guidance - specifically RPG's with dual explosive systems for penetrating armor. Most vehicle mounted anti-tank missiles are Wire-Guided with a visible light video camera, though some systems have cameras that can work in infra-red - but wire-guided weapons aren't self targeting, there's a man watching a TV screen steering it.
Also, Chameleon tanks would still look like a tank in NVG and normal visual systems (non-IR). So in a conflict like Iraq or Afghanistan, having IR Chameleon armor wouldn't help at all. I wouldn't expect too many insurgents have IR imaging capability. NVG would be much more prevalent. Since they're identifiying targets visually, a vehicle that appears like a car or just invisible in IR, but is still obviously a tank when viewed through NVG, is going to get shot at just the same. In daylight it's not even a concern as insurgents are just going to identify it visually anyways.
This kind of IR masking is really only good for avoiding initial discovery* from an enemy using IR imaging only, with a ruse that's likely not to hold up for very long. It might buy the tank a few extra seconds in certain situations, but most times it would just be a non-factor. Though in Tank combat, a few extra seconds can be the difference between life and death, but the certain situations where it actually gains you those few extra seconds would likely be so rare as to almost never be a factor.
Considering that this system is likely very expensive, I just don't see it being worth it. I can see it being much more useful as a visual Friend-or-Foe identification system, than as a type of effective concealment.
*Of course though, for forces not in a vehicle (on foot), the sound of the tank would give it away long before detecting it by IR would be necessary. Tanks aren't exactly very stealthy.
Pbartender
First Post
The tank doesn't try to look like something cool, but tries to look like something hot...
So, using the example from the article, if the tank is operating in the arctic, it tiles would shift the heat around on the sink, so that the tank looked like a polar bear. Or, the tank could give itself the heat signature of one of the enemy's military vehicles, or perhaps a civilian vehicle.
The idea is to confuse the enemy momentarily (which can make all the difference in modern combat), not make the tank invisible.
"Adaptiv -- an armor encasing that looks and feels as one imagines a dragon's scales to -- turns tanks into chameleons, allowing them to disappear into the environment behind them or to even look like a snow drift, trash can, crowd, or a soccer mom’s station wagon."
(emphasis mine) That quote should speak to this point.
Tanks are big, and hot. Cars are small, and, as I understand it, much cooler. Perhaps I am wrong, but I'd expect the total heat off that tank to exceed most of the civilian objects it is likely to try to mimic. So, where does that heat go?
And that's just considering the body of the vehicle. Hot exhaust from engines shows up on IR too...
I'm not worried about combat effectiveness. I'm just curious on the technical question of where the heat goes. You can use a sink for a little while, but when the tank's run by the equivalent of a jet engine, that's going to only be a little while...
Pbartender
First Post
Huh... I must have missed that sentence on the first read through. My mistake.
You've got me... I suppose that's the big secret that they won't tell anyone.
But they do have that before and after photo at the end of the article:
Pbartender
First Post
Having watched the promotional video on the company's website, it looks like panels that are added to the sides of the vehicle, rather than replacing them entirely. Additionally, the panels don't necessarily cover the entire vehicle. On the tanks, for example, it seems as if they only cover the sides. Furthermore, if you look very, very carefully, you can see just a little plume of hot exhaust flowing out while it's driving.
So, yeah... the tank itself is probably still hot under the panels.
So, yeah... the tank itself is probably still hot under the panels.
Perhaps the hexoganal tiles are made of some sort of Peltier element? If you radiate heat outwards that you want visible, and the other heat inwards via cooling and the Peltier element, you could still have the heat, just redistribute it? You need super good control of the temperature of each of the panels, though.
Pinotage
Pinotage
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