Hit dice with no level adjustment?

[Infiniti2000]

Okay, you're all right, that's where we were differing. How utterly stupid of me.

Thanks for your patience and I apologize profusely for my ignorance.

+3 ECL for a gnoll is too much.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

So, the question becomes: do the gnoll's two racial hit dice suck badly enough to make up for the ability mods?

Is a Gnoll Ranger 1 balanced against a Human Ranger 3?

 

[apesamongus]

+3 ECL for a gnoll is too much.

It's that way for most things. The problem is the way they calculate LA (by the examples in SS). They assume that all abilities might ass to LA and nothing taken into account for either the HD or for the standard mods that all 0 hd races get.

 

[Jhulae]

Don't forget, that having monsterous HD doesn't just add HP. There is also a BAB bonus (most monsterous races use the Cleric progression), save bonuses, some skill points, etc.

Yes, it's not quite as good as having actual levels, but it's not as bad as just getting HP from the deal.

 

[the Jester]

In general, monster type class levels (if you will) are about as good as an npc class'. There are exceptions- dragon, magical beast and outsider- but the others do seem a little overrated at higher levels.

The problem is, at 3rd level those stat bonuses that a gnoll gets look pretty darn impressive; at 13th, they're nothing. I like the system in UA for 'buying off' LA, and I think occasionally I might allow pcs with level adjustments to buy them off with xp to a certain extent as they get higher level. The disparity in power level between standard race pcs and a high level adjustment pc becomes very noticeable at higher levels.

 

[Jhulae]

Trust me, I'm not saying monster levels are great (but some are definitely better than others), but it's not quite as bad as just getting HP.

Buying off LA does seem to be the best option, though.

 

[Ahrimon]

Why not just get rid of the racial levels? That removes the skills, feats, bab, saves etc. Then the gnoll only has a +1LA. So a gnoll ranger 2 would be a third level character. Personally I think that's the fair way to do it. It works for most low hd huminoid creatures. Most of these creatures grew up in a fairly brutal society where they need to be that tough just to survive. But if one grew up in a normal pc race society they would have begun training in thier class at an early age. You just let class levels replace the HD. Of course I wouldn't let any of these races start at a level lower than thier normal ECL. So a Gnoll would have to start as a 4th level character, but they would be a 3rd level XX with a +1 LA. I don't think I'd do it for anything with more than three or four HD though.

If your campaign had a 1HD Gnoll race then it would drop the extra HD and advance as a regular character with a +1LA Like a Tiefling/Asimar. So why should a player be punished by having sub-optimal racial HD just because he's in a non standard race?

Ahrimon

 

[iwatt]

In general, monster type class levels (if you will) are about as good as an npc class'. There are exceptions- dragon, magical beast and outsider- but the others do seem a little overrated at higher levels.

I find animal hit dice (for were creatures) not that bad either.

 

[peerwon]

hd vs la

I just had a player turn into a werebadger... is she gaining the exp for the hd, or is that adding to effective la?

(Is she gaining like a level 7 and shooting for 5, or gaining like 7 and shooting for 3?)

 

[Jackinthegreen]

I just had a player turn into a werebadger... is she gaining the exp for the hd, or is that adding to effective la?

(Is she gaining like a level 7 and shooting for 5, or gaining like 7 and shooting for 3?)

If you ruled the character instantly got all the abilities of the wereform then the character needs to make up the XP due to gaining racial HD and Level Adjustment.

For example, if a character is afflicted with lycanthropy and becomes a werebadger he or she immediately gains 1 animal HD and +2 LA. His ECL just went up 3 levels. A base 4th level character in this situation would now have an ECL of 7 and would need to gain enough experience to become an 8th level character to gain a level. A 4th level character has a minimum of 6,000 XP. He would need to get to 28,000 XP in order to level up, since that's what's required of an 8th level character.

As for the gnoll situation, I agree they totally got screwed.