Is Magic a Setting Element or a Plot Device

[Janx]

If the PC's are doing this as a matter of course, then why don't cities like Greyhawk, or Waterdeep also do these things?

Because the author didn't think of it. They certainly ignored it.

This is not uncommon in most fantasy fiction. Especially TSR stuff where they'd bring in a guest novellist to write a murder mystery, and the next thing you know, the planet's 2 moons have been reduced to one and you can't swing an axe without tripping over Norway Pines and Irish Setters.

As such, the players really are the first to think of these ideas. Because the setting creators ignored it, they left it open to the players (GM is also a player).

If you don't like the direction it will take things, then you'll have to come up with nerfing reasons.

Otherwise, you'll have to accept that the players are inventors in your world and can change the face of it dramatically.

Here's some reasons that magic didn't transform the economy and industry of a stereotypical fantasy world:

• the general populace is wary of magic (plenty of real people are wary of gays and "other" religions, but that doesn't mean everyone is, just enough to discourage widespread acceptance and adoption of their ideas).
• various guilds block competition (lamp-lighters dont wantt to be replaced by Continual Light street lamps)
• Wizards not wanting to waste casting slots as a factory job (you could allocate Continual Light in all your slots or Melf's Acid Arrow and Invisibility, which would you choose)
• Wizards mystique, prestige and fear is maintained by not turning their art into a mundane, commonplace occurance. (unlike real life persecuted groups of people, wizards have greater personal power, keeping wizardry in wizards hands supports that).
• Physics, biology and chemistry in a fantasy realm doesn't work the same as the real world, because magic is incorporated into the functioning of it. Thus, pre-rennaisance medicine, physics, chemistry really is "how it works" because magic supplies the finishing support.
• Protectionism again. History is rife with examples of the trades blocking advancements. The spinning wheel was the devil's tool because it replaced 12 drop-spindle spinners. It takes time before any of these advancements get broader acceptance.

 

[Hussar]

Because the author didn't think of it. They certainly ignored it.

This is not uncommon in most fantasy fiction. Especially TSR stuff where they'd bring in a guest novellist to write a murder mystery, and the next thing you know, the planet's 2 moons have been reduced to one and you can't swing an axe without tripping over Norway Pines and Irish Setters.

As such, the players really are the first to think of these ideas. Because the setting creators ignored it, they left it open to the players (GM is also a player).

If you don't like the direction it will take things, then you'll have to come up with nerfing reasons.

Otherwise, you'll have to accept that the players are inventors in your world and can change the face of it dramatically.

Here's some reasons that magic didn't transform the economy and industry of a stereotypical fantasy world:

• the general populace is wary of magic (plenty of real people are wary of gays and "other" religions, but that doesn't mean everyone is, just enough to discourage widespread acceptance and adoption of their ideas).
• various guilds block competition (lamp-lighters dont wantt to be replaced by Continual Light street lamps)
• Wizards not wanting to waste casting slots as a factory job (you could allocate Continual Light in all your slots or Melf's Acid Arrow and Invisibility, which would you choose)
• Wizards mystique, prestige and fear is maintained by not turning their art into a mundane, commonplace occurance. (unlike real life persecuted groups of people, wizards have greater personal power, keeping wizardry in wizards hands supports that).
• Physics, biology and chemistry in a fantasy realm doesn't work the same as the real world, because magic is incorporated into the functioning of it. Thus, pre-rennaisance medicine, physics, chemistry really is "how it works" because magic supplies the finishing support.
• Protectionism again. History is rife with examples of the trades blocking advancements. The spinning wheel was the devil's tool because it replaced 12 drop-spindle spinners. It takes time before any of these advancements get broader acceptance.

In other words, the fantastic in most D&D settings is a plot device. It's a means to achieving an end and has very little consideration when dealing with the setting.

Yes, I realize that you can block it. You can come up with a bunch of reasons why it doesn't happen, but, that's the point - you have to do that. If you don't, then it probably should happen. My problem with most of these justifications is that they don't take a long enough view. Most game world great cities have VERY long histories. Centuries, if not a millennia or three of history.

While the lamplighters guild might block continual light for a century or three, it's a large stretch to think they'd block it for that long.

To me, the problem is, the fantastic in D&D was never built on the idea of setting. It was built on the idea that your group of special forces experts was going to go into the dungeon and kill stuff and take its loot. Everything flows from that point. It isn't until you start trying to apply the fantastic to the broader setting that problems occur.

 

[Janx]

In other words, the fantastic in most D&D settings is a plot device. It's a means to achieving an end and has very little consideration when dealing with the setting.
...snip...
To me, the problem is, the fantastic in D&D was never built on the idea of setting. It was built on the idea that your group of special forces experts was going to go into the dungeon and kill stuff and take its loot. Everything flows from that point. It isn't until you start trying to apply the fantastic to the broader setting that problems occur.

I don't think i use magic as a plot device as in, this here dungeon is magic, or you have to get the magic sword to advance the plot.

It's more of a tool the PCs have, like skills and weapons to use towards solving problems. Many of the problems in my games are non-magical. the villain is the problem because he and his henchment are trying to destroy the village, not because they happen to be undead.

Like you said, I think the problem is that settings designers forget that all this magic-technology would change the world if a some wizards put their mind to it, and that these world changing ideas could have happened a long time ago before the PCs show up.

So instead, it's like you've got a medieval world, that only in the last 50 years or so, has magic appeared.

I think if you want to play in GreyHawk/Forgotten Realms/medieval fantasy, you've got to swallow the pill. Otherwise, what you're lobbying for is that every fantasy game has to be Magipunk 2020. That's where the idea goes.

I can think of a few other constraints to why this won't happen:
wizards, by 1e math, account for a very small percentage of the population. Is that enough for them to go industrial revolution on the world? Would that increase or diminish their own power (if they could wire up a control switch to their products...)

Wizards are stuck with whatever spells they learned. While the PH has a butt load of spells, that doesn't mean they all literally exist in the game world and can be learned by heading for the library. There's nothing saying these spells have existed since the first mage (who couldn't know all of them). Some of them were first announced at the Wizards of the Coast convention last year. The first time a PC proclaims he's learning Fireball, might represent him inventing that spell (probably not, but you get the point).

Since wizards can't KNOW all spells in the PH, it is probably that not all spells in the PH are actively available as castable spells at any point in game time.

Humans are sort of resistant to change, and to magic (remember the Salem Land Grabs, er Witch Trials). Our technological growth has been accerating, but that also implies that we freaking crawled up until the 1800s when things really started to pick up steam.

Couple that with fear of powers a minority has that are unnatural, compared to what the rest of the world can do. Folks don't that unholy stuff anywhere near them. There's a reason for the D&D stereotype that magic is feared, which screws the wizard PC in the party during social encounters.

I don't see any single reason, but there are a pile of little reasons why the guy with phenomenal cosmic power doesn't submit to being a factory worker cranking out magic light bulbs for the masses.

 

[gamerprinter]

Yeah, I think as soon as a particular nation in a campaign world starts the path towards arcane industrial revolution, they are going to find themselves at war with the wizards from the rest of the realms to nip that concept out of existence. And I would be on the side of the outside wizards on this...

 

[I'm A Banana]

To me, the problem is, the fantastic in D&D was never built on the idea of setting.

This problem largely goes away when you assume everyone basically caps out at 3rd level (except the PC's) and that monsters are rare and threatening.

In other words, if you make the world more mythic, where those who get to cast continual light are remarkable individuals touching the ineffable substance of luminosity in a world where they are the only ones who get to do that, you don't need to worry about the ramifications of making it mundane.

Eberron takes this path, with its "Generally, no NPC's above 7th level" byline. It works pretty well -- there's a more "mundane" feel to the adventurers there, up until a certain point.

 

[Hussar]

I don't think i use magic as a plot device as in, this here dungeon is magic, or you have to get the magic sword to advance the plot.

It's more of a tool the PCs have, like skills and weapons to use towards solving problems. Many of the problems in my games are non-magical. the villain is the problem because he and his henchment are trying to destroy the village, not because they happen to be undead.

I'm not really sure that tool doesn't equal plot device. If I have X fantastical element, and it only goes towards solving the plot, and never really gets applied to the setting, that's a plot device.

Like you said, I think the problem is that settings designers forget that all this magic-technology would change the world if a some wizards put their mind to it, and that these world changing ideas could have happened a long time ago before the PCs show up.

So instead, it's like you've got a medieval world, that only in the last 50 years or so, has magic appeared.

I think if you want to play in GreyHawk/Forgotten Realms/medieval fantasy, you've got to swallow the pill. Otherwise, what you're lobbying for is that every fantasy game has to be Magipunk 2020. That's where the idea goes.

Oh, certainly. And, by and large, I do. D&D is hardly the only offender here as well. Old WoD was bad for this as well. Funily enough, the WoD ripoffs movies (Underworld etc) show a Vampire world that is far better at incorporating the fantastic than The Masquerade was.

I can think of a few other constraints to why this won't happen:
wizards, by 1e math, account for a very small percentage of the population. Is that enough for them to go industrial revolution on the world? Would that increase or diminish their own power (if they could wire up a control switch to their products...)

Wizards are stuck with whatever spells they learned. While the PH has a butt load of spells, that doesn't mean they all literally exist in the game world and can be learned by heading for the library. There's nothing saying these spells have existed since the first mage (who couldn't know all of them). Some of them were first announced at the Wizards of the Coast convention last year. The first time a PC proclaims he's learning Fireball, might represent him inventing that spell (probably not, but you get the point).

Since wizards can't KNOW all spells in the PH, it is probably that not all spells in the PH are actively available as castable spells at any point in game time.

Humans are sort of resistant to change, and to magic (remember the Salem Land Grabs, er Witch Trials). Our technological growth has been accerating, but that also implies that we freaking crawled up until the 1800s when things really started to pick up steam.

Couple that with fear of powers a minority has that are unnatural, compared to what the rest of the world can do. Folks don't that unholy stuff anywhere near them. There's a reason for the D&D stereotype that magic is feared, which screws the wizard PC in the party during social encounters.

I don't see any single reason, but there are a pile of little reasons why the guy with phenomenal cosmic power doesn't submit to being a factory worker cranking out magic light bulbs for the masses.

The problem with this is twofold. One, I'm not just talking about wizards, but the incorporation of the fantastic in general. In Basic/Expert D&D, for example, the honey from Giant Bees work as healing potions. I'm thinking that bee keeping is going to be a pretty high priority for settlements when the honey actually heals wounds.

Go through the Monster Manual in any edition and there are a host of other examples like this.

The other problem is that as far as magic goes, it's not really the wizard that's the issue - it's the cleric. Continual Light is a 2nd level cleric spell. Purify food and drink, Create Water, etc. Wizards are not really the problem at all.

Yeah, I think as soon as a particular nation in a campaign world starts the path towards arcane industrial revolution, they are going to find themselves at war with the wizards from the rest of the realms to nip that concept out of existence. And I would be on the side of the outside wizards on this...

Why? Why would wizards/clerics have a specific issue with this?

This problem largely goes away when you assume everyone basically caps out at 3rd level (except the PC's) and that monsters are rare and threatening.

In other words, if you make the world more mythic, where those who get to cast continual light are remarkable individuals touching the ineffable substance of luminosity in a world where they are the only ones who get to do that, you don't need to worry about the ramifications of making it mundane.

Eberron takes this path, with its "Generally, no NPC's above 7th level" byline. It works pretty well -- there's a more "mundane" feel to the adventurers there, up until a certain point.

Yeah, Eberron is the exception here. Although, funnily enough, Eberron is also one of the most "fantastic" of the settings as well. Floating cities, giant magical wastelands, fantastic races are treated as mostly mundane, magic railroads, etc.

Really, IMO, Eberron is the first D&D setting to actually take the fantastic into account in its design. I suppose Planescape might probably be the first though. I don't know enough about it to really have an opinion.

 

[Janx]

I'm not really sure that tool doesn't equal plot device. If I have X fantastical element, and it only goes towards solving the plot, and never really gets applied to the setting, that's a plot device.

that's what I'm saying, I don't tend to have adventures where the PCs have to use spell X or item Y. Having Continual Light in your spellbook is off my GM radar. I set up situations, and assume the party mostly has a variety of tools in their belt (spells, items, skills, etc) to figure out a solution.

unlike a play, where every prop in the play is there for the scene, in D&D, the players have the stuff they've accumulated, and any one of them might solve the problem, but i've not planned any dependency on any specific one.

Yeah, Eberron is the exception here. Although, funnily enough, Eberron is also one of the most "fantastic" of the settings as well. Floating cities, giant magical wastelands, fantastic races are treated as mostly mundane, magic railroads, etc.

Really, IMO, Eberron is the first D&D setting to actually take the fantastic into account in its design. I suppose Planescape might probably be the first though. I don't know enough about it to really have an opinion.

That is wierd how Eberon is the poster child for Magipunk extrapolation of magic.

I dunno, it doesn't bother me.

 

[Hussar]

that's what I'm saying, I don't tend to have adventures where the PCs have to use spell X or item Y. Having Continual Light in your spellbook is off my GM radar. I set up situations, and assume the party mostly has a variety of tools in their belt (spells, items, skills, etc) to figure out a solution.

unlike a play, where every prop in the play is there for the scene, in D&D, the players have the stuff they've accumulated, and any one of them might solve the problem, but i've not planned any dependency on any specific one.

Again, fair enough. OTOH, you have to plan your adventures based on what the PC's have at their disposal as well. There's a reason high level D&D adventures tend to look a certain way - they presume resources that are pretty likely to appear in a given group. Flight for example.

While you might not base the adventure off of the party having X, the party has X in order to get through your adventure. It's still a plot device, it's just that it's being used by the players, not the DM.

That is wierd how Eberon is the poster child for Magipunk extrapolation of magic.

I dunno, it doesn't bother me.

Doesn't bother me either. And, it's not really weird considering that was one of the basic premises of the setting - what would a D&D world ACTUALLY look like. In other words, Eberron was built from the ground up with D&D mechanics in mind, while settings like Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk were built and then the mechanics layered over top.

 

[Pentius]

Yeah, I think as soon as a particular nation in a campaign world starts the path towards arcane industrial revolution, they are going to find themselves at war with the wizards from the rest of the realms to nip that concept out of existence. And I would be on the side of the outside wizards on this...

Perhaps. But wizards are, almost by default, incredibly intelligent people with an eye toward increasing their own personal power. The higher level the wizard, the more widespread these traits become. If there were a war between wizards who wanted to use their magic to live like Kings as industry barons, and those who wanted to...whatever it is non-adventuring wizards do(I'm not really sure), I very much doubt that any inequity in numbers would be toward the non-industry side. And it's likely the industry side would have the more ruthless with them, as well.

And even if the non-industry wizards won, "Use my skills to make money" is not a complicated thought, and each new generation of wizards is going to be another highly intelligent, likely personal-power oriented bunch. The only way that war would be a one-time war is if industry won.

 

[gamerprinter]

If it were wizards against wizards, that would be a possibilty.

My thought was really if the government of a given state included more than wizards initiating the arcane industrial revolution - perhaps a mercantile based society run by rogues or a military run by martial types with wizards as part of the larger group starting heavy manufacturing. It might then by wizards of the wider world at war with one nation and not necessarily wizard vs. wizard.

Perhaps the wizards power not participating in the industrial revolution would be dimished somehow and they would seek to counter the direction.

Perhaps there's more than just industrial revolution at work, perhaps a conversion to the common people to a slave class or other detrimental thing besides profitable arcane technology.

Perhaps it would clerics vs. the uprising arcane classes.

I just don't think industrial revolution is necessarily in the best interests for society concerned, including wizards...